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California to gain new EV charging stations under NRG settlement

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by inventor00, Mar 24, 2012.

  1. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Yes, absolutely. Infrastructure is already in place for flex fuel, since one of the fuels is gasoline. In the future renewable or natural gas based ethanol or methanol can be substituted. CNG PHEVs seems like a good solution for trucks and for local and long range buses.

    Why not develop both BEVs and PHEVs, as the feds have advocated. In my mind flex fuel phevs are a long term solution, that is more likely to be sucessful in the short and long run. Short run bevs should be less expensive and my judgement could be off on the majority of the fleet.

    I agree with technology that uses less gasoline. But IMHO long range BEVs will always be expensive, and fast chargers may always seem too slow. Short run bevs (150 miles or less) along with phevs seem like a good solution to using less gasoline and reducing unhealthy pollution.
     
  2. Keiichi

    Keiichi Active Member

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    You will note, I did state the cost and also the newer tech concerns also as part of the issue as well. However, having the infrastructure there helps keep promoting it. If we go, "Well, there weren't a lot of EV cars out there, so no need to have them out there..." When the cost of them does come down to no longer being a purely 'early adopter' type of vehicle, you still have the range and lack of infrastructure to not encouraging switching over still, even if the technology is around for 3+ years.

    I rather have the infrastructure ready for the better cars than go "Oh... Where can I recharge my car? I still can't go city A because my car's max range is x and City A is over x/2 with no place to plug in over in city A and it will take k hours to recharge up with just the car charger."

    And while again we can go back to the EREV argument again, the ER should not be the 'old reliable', be it Gas or flex-fuel or other fuels. The ER part should be the last resort for a vehicle, for the long stretches where there are no stations, not "Cause I have it, why not use it."

    Please remember, it isn't putting the cart before the horse, it is having the horse in front of the cart, but planning for the next step ahead, not 'Oh, by the way... Maybe we should do this someday..." dragging our heels while making betsy dragging the cart around after years past her willingness to keep doing it.
     
  3. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    Keiichi,

    Given this situation below ... I'll take a PHV over BEV any day...

    http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7572 ...

    "So - made two trips this week already to OAK airport for quick So.Cal. down and back business trips. On Monday, I was the only EV for the 8 chargers both on arrival and when I returned.

    Arrived at 6:50 a.m. today to find 7 LEAFs already plugged in and charging. Holy C$@p! Took the last spot and plugged in. When I returned at 4pm - all 7 were STILL there and plugged in.

    To say the least, this has created a bit of anxiety about future availability. I can't get to the airport and back without charging (not sure if L1 would be sufficient) and those 8 are the only chargers in the area. While I'm glad to see so many EV's in the area, I'm beginning to wonder if I dare continue to chance driving my LEAF to the airport of if I'll have to take the wife's ICE just to make sure I can get home.

    Anyone else experiencing "charger anxiety?"

    My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - So, owners what range are you getting ?

    road trip -

    http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8242

    http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8249&start=10
     
  4. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    I can say I'm so so glad they spend the money to put in the paddle chargers in CA. That way I can use my EV. Oh wait, they don't work with current cars. Lets put in all the CaMerEDo or what ever then when we get SAE standards or tesla it will be ready for them to QC. Whops, guess not.

    Problem with building out infrastructure before the fleet exists is that is will probably be wrong.

    L2 chargers at mass-transit stations or malls, useful stuff. QC on the highway is a lot of money for a few enthusiast to be able to make PR runs.
     
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  5. Keiichi

    Keiichi Active Member

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    I have YET to see public available FlexFuel stations be wide spread enough to believe it is there yet. From E85 & Flex Fuel Station Finder | Ethanol Retailers, Search for Santa Barbara - None, Closest one - 30 miles, Ventura City. Next closest, 52 miles, Lompoc City, next closest, 74 miles away, LOS ANGELES. Awfully long way to drive to get flex fuel within a 200 mi radius according to this finder... 200 mi radius and only 3 stations total.

    Now let's go to Los Angeles, a total of 8 within a 200 mile range, 1 exactly at the pinpoint, 2 at 27 miles, 1 at 42, another at 44, another at 69, another at 89 and another at 98mi. So basically, someone has to drive literally a min of 1-10 miles to get flexfuel gas in Los Angeles, which is not so bad, but Santa Barbara, about a min of 30 miles to get it. Again, not so wide spread and does not really inspire the desire to go out of the way to get it over normal gas, so until more stations support Flexfuel, the idea is just 'eh'.

    I have no problems with PHEVs, but even the Plugins could benefit from having the charge points being there, making the fuel they are caring as a fall back, not the essential. Again, this is not about zero emissions desire but simply what would be round out the fact that we (collectively) would be best served having the ability to recharge a car and regardless of range, I mean even going beyond the return range, I feel some would feel being able to recoup some of that mileage heading back by having the convenience of recharging at the initial destination would be better than just treating the range extension as 'old reliable'.

    And at the same time, I am all for having non-crude oil range extension, but you also have to to bolster the replacement fuel infrastructure to encourage people to feel comfortable with it. As I cited before, Flexfuel might sound great, but for some places, 30 miles to get it... More hassle to get it than Gas and won't encourage people to really get off it or lean towards a PHEV that will use it if the infrastructure is weak.
     
  6. Keiichi

    Keiichi Active Member

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    And Doctor, you realize you are literally putting the cart before the horse in your argument here.

    You say the fleet should dictate the charging station. So... Which fleet should dictate the Charging method?

    Tesla? Nissan? GM? Fisker? The people who make the electric carts that drive around town?

    Or do we develop something as novel as a *gasp* modular, universal support station. I mean, good lord, let's not even consider the possibility of what has been sold in a Radio Shack called the Universal AC Adapter where people use *gasp* modular adapters and a switching power brick to provide current/voltage for all those devices you would use for it.

    I mean, heaven forbid we would consider that possibility, and also noting that some of cars like the Leaf, the Plugin Prius and Volt strangely use the same type of connector.

    I'm sorry, but we can't just have the fleet dictate the charging method when you just proven the point that why should there be the infrastructure if there is no adopted standard? Well, hard to do that too if everyone decides to do their own standard and will keep doing so.
     
  7. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    Keiichi,

    You'd learn the most by listening to what Leaf drivers are saying. Give an honest look at thread below, and comment on the realities of public EV charging ...

    My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - New Anxiety? - Charger Availability ?

    So - made two trips this week already to OAK airport for quick So.Cal. down and back business trips. On Monday, I was the only EV for the 8 chargers both on arrival and when I returned.

    Arrived at 6:50 a.m. today to find 7 LEAFs already plugged in and charging. Holy C$@p! Took the last spot and plugged in. When I returned at 4pm - all 7 were STILL there and plugged in.

    To say the least, this has created a bit of anxiety about future availability. I can't get to the airport and back without charging (not sure if L1 would be sufficient) and those 8 are the only chargers in the area. While I'm glad to see so many EV's in the area, I'm beginning to wonder if I dare continue to chance driving my LEAF to the airport of if I'll have to take the wife's ICE just to make sure I can get home.

    Anyone else experiencing "charger anxiety?"

    ... I'd take a PHEV in this situation ... far as charging goes, I'd count on it at home.

    "Unless public chargers can be reserved in advance, and can be relied on to be available they are useless for anything but casual charging."
     
  8. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    The infant charger infrastructure goes through all the gymnastics to make the L2 available via reservations. Don't do it? ... and it's at your own peril. Hopefully this person can figure it out. Then again, some folks never figure how to input GPS addresses.
    IOW, you have 2 things ... slow or lazy people ... and the infant infrastructure. Soooo ... back to just sticking with gas? until THAT infrastructure comes crashing in?
    Mid east mega wells simply jacking up production 'at-will' is not something they can do much any more. Following hubbert's curve, you can only Jack so many tons of high pressure 'persuasion' into 50yr old & 60yr old 'legacy-wells', and hope to get any kind of return on investment.

    I hadn't heard that Nixon / Carter got 'blame' for that part of history. Following well established principals that even the oil industry acknowledges now days, U.S. wells, as of the early 1970's could no longer meet U.S. consumption. Thus, we began importing oil ... 5% ... then 10% ... then 15% of our demand - we got cut off (protest for siding with Isreal) from that small per centage - the lines formed simply due to supply and demand. Shortfall means you have to charge high(er) prices. Can you imagine what lines would be like now ... what with about 50% being imported? hold on ... that'd be a bumpy ride.
     
  9. Keiichi

    Keiichi Active Member

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    And as pointed out... The Leaf is entering an IMMATURE market. I have stated this time and time again over other threads, same with the Volt. To get the most out of it, there would need to be more stations. But at this time, the infrastructure has not been bolstered in the last 5 years and I do recall a few stations being up when I was in the bay area.

    In my area alone, there is 7 listed in google, most of them in Goleta, and not counting the 2 or so Public Parking Lots where I have seen a sign specifying about 3 or 4 spots for electric car parking with just a normal outlet there for them.

    Add to that, we have no alternatives except the Volt with its range extension using gasoline or the Prius Plugin. My vote is to go with the Volt or the Prius Plugin for now, but feel in the future, it would be better to have more Electrical infrastructure which then would lessen the fuel consumption over all because you reduce the need to use the range extension as there are more readily available places to plug in, making the fuel component of the PHEV be a 'safety blanket' than 'old reliable' when it comes to getting to places.

    BTW, you DO realize the reason why I bought a Prius v and NOT the Volt or the Leaf? Even with my 10 mile commute between house and work, which is well under either of the car's Electric range? I'm a single person, wanting a car that has variable range. Something I won't get with a Leaf if I decide to go beyond the recommended range, say Los Angeles, even with the multitudes of charging points that seem to be only in clusters at certain points. And as much as I tried out the Volt, I was not happy with the interior design of the car and not too enthused with their 'pedestrian alert' method, but in the case of the vehicle, I could not see myself paying for either car for the incentives when the design of the car is not to my liking, my parking situation does not allow for a plug in and here I am... Advocating BEVs and plugin infrastructure. Funny that.
     
  10. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    There's a few doing a good job with the safety blanket plan. I hear some are getting 250 MPGs.


    Ok, so the first thing to be worked on is charging capability at your residence .... and the many, many other places not close to garages.

    Look at what PiPers are up to..
    http://priuschat.com/forums/toyota-prius-plug-in/105419-level-2-charger-worthwhile.html
     
  11. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    Hill, how do you determine if a charging slot is available or not? ... ok, in some cases you can reserve a spot.

    -------------
    For the rest, let's say there are 1 million BEVs in CA and they all have chargers at their 'home' (where they're parked at night)....

    anyone have an estimate of how many public chargers might be needed to support those 1 million BEVs?
     
  12. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    You're saying chicken vs egg; To say what you say from the other hand wringing side:
    "Let's say there are a million Chademos & a million L2's ... what a waste!... We don't need that many EV chargers!!"
    Ok now back to reality? Or did I miss the point as I often do.

    ;)
    .
     
  13. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    A PR run...

    My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - Multiple DC Quick Charges did get a Hot Battery for this guy

    "This is a picture that I stole from a LEAF driver who drove the inaugural Oregon Electric Highway yesterday, in mild March (jacket wearing) weather. After multiple quick charges to 80-90% every 25 miles, this is the result. The number 9 temperature bar is over 52.5C/126F.

    Yes Virginia, there is a hot battery in there."

    "The trip down:

    * Leav Corvallis: 2pm
    * Arrive Eugene: 3pm, leave 5:20pm - 47.8 miles, 13.1kWh
    * Cottage Grove: 6pm, leave 7pm - 25.2 miles, 7.8kWh
    * Rice Hill: 7:26pm, leave 7:45pm - 26.7 miles, 9.2kWh
    * Roseburg: 8:17pm, leave 8:35pm - 23.9 miles, 7.5kWh
    * Canyonville: 9:10pm, leave 9:34 - 25.6 miles, 8.7kWh
    * Wolf Creek: 10:05pm, leave 10:26pm - 23.0 miles, 8.7kWh
    * Grants Pass: 10:51pm, leave 11:28pm - 18.2 miles, 5.8kWh
    * Ashland: 12:24am - 45.0 miles, 14.5kWh

    Total: 75kWh

    The trip back:

    * Leave Ashland: 8:32am
    * Ashland: 9:10am, leave 10:08am - 30 miles, 8.6kWh
    * Central Point: 10:30am?, leave 12:30pm? - 18.4 miles, 4.3kWh
    * Grants Pass: 12:49pm, leave 3:42pm - 25.4 miles, 6.4kWh (10.7 total from Ashland, vs 14.5 to go the other way)
    * Wolf Creek: 4:03pm, leave 5:06pm - 18.4 miles, 6.0kWh (vs 5.8kWh)
    * Canyonville: 5:32pm, leave 5:49pm - 23.2 miles, 6.5kWh (vs 8.7kWh)
    * Roseburg: 6:16pm, leave 6:42pm - 25.3 miles, 7.1kWh (vs 8.7kWh)
    * Rice Hill: 7:09pm, leave 7:29pm - 23.2 miles, 7.1kWh (vs 7.5kWh)
    * Cottage Grove: 8:01pm, leave 8:57pm - 26.3 miles, 7.2kWh (vs 9.2kWh)
    * Corvallis: 10:16pm - 64.4 miles, 14.3kWh (vs total of 20.9kWh and 73 miles)

    Total: 67.5kWh
    Grand total: 142.5kWh"

    http://media.batie.org/wceh/
     
  14. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    I guess the 2 dozden lines above would be significant had anyone disagreed on whether tons of quick charging would heat a traction pack (or any battery). Or ... did someone say that EV's are ideal for cross country driving (you know ... that whopping 1/2 of 1% of all non-commercial driving done in the U.S.) on a daily basis. I missed it again. Or ... is the goal to prove EV's don't fit all needs? I'm still looking for the new and surprising thing I guess.

    That brings it back full circle ... what are the alternatives, like when the oil runs even more low. Bio diesel? Grain fuels? Better look what it takes to make those products viable ... lots & lots of cheep fuel. Cheep electricity to run the pumps, to pump the water to the crops ... petro chemical fertilizers ... petro-chemical pesticides ... lots of btu's to ferment the crop into alcohol ... oh, wait? we're low on petrochemical stuff? (repeating) there are no silver bullets. The age of cheep energy is spiraling ever downward. Time to get with the (alternate) program ... all of them ... and none can be thrown out.

    .
     
  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    This was also Jimmy Carter's reasoning on why the US would never be able to import as much oil again. Now look at how much was imported in 2004 versus 1978. Oil is finite, but its not going to run out next week.

    Wow. That is so far off. The arab oil embargo started in the 1973 war. It also was against Japan and Europe. Part of it was to pressure the west to pressure isreal to give up land captured in the war. Nixon's price controls made it unprofitable to sell old oil and it went off the market. This created artificial scarcity creating the shortage and rationing. It is true that the embargo got rid of some sources of imported oil, but it is untrue that oil was not available. It simply was available at a higher price. The price controls reduced supply and since the price could not rise stimulated more demand. Basic economics should tell you this creates a
    shortage. Things the EPA knew in 1974

    http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/energy/01.html
    Jimmy Carter had deregulated gasoline prices but not domestic oil when the Iranian revolution happened. He started removing Nixon's price controls in April 1979, as economists had already determined that they were responsible for the 1973-1974 shortage. This was a phased deregulation, and did not fully remove price controls. Ronald reagan finally finished that job. Carter also boycotted Iranian oil. The existing price controls set the second set of gas lines. I wasn't old enough to experience them, but this is the narrative you will here in the class room today as it was when I went to school. Part of the gas lines were media scare as the US used almost as much gasoline in 1979 as they did in 1978. Pick up a text book about the subject and you won't find that the shortages were caused by lack of available oil. Ford also failed to remove the price controls, but did create CAFE standards. Under Nixon and Carter there would have been big price spikes without the price controls, but not an oil shortage. In japan there was a toilet paper shortage caused by panic buying when people said there wasn't enough oil to make toilet paper:)

    Well, no lines, if we had Obama's not nixons policies. We would be seeing a higher spike in gasoline prices. We need to learn from history, not assume that the conventional wisdom of richard nixon was correct.

    Reagan was right to get rid of the price controls. He was not able to get rid of the expensive gas pipeline and took years to get rid of the syn fuels corp trying to make gasoline from coal. All were good, but forsight would have had oil taxes imposed when they dropped greatly in the 1980s.

    With today's knowledge we should be doing more to reduce oil use. That should include flat oil taxes that give incentives to use use less.
     
  16. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    SF Bay area quick chargers, ..

    My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them sooner

    No QC standard in US yet

    http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=8280

    "The SAE is a group of Total losers. Yes, I am comfortable throwing dirt in their faces and reverting to name calling. I think it is terrible how they consistently create unique US only standards that fly in the face of international standards and have created countless headaches for the average mechanically inclined handyman over the years. "what the heck this bolt must be metric, I only have SAE."

    If they had a single plug solution in play, I would be all for it. However, all they have is an idea that is years out and a line of attack against the DC charging standard that is alive and well and in play today. They are just another group of right wing idiots on the side of slowing EV adoption. Just the opposite of what they claim. Perfection is the enemy of the good in this case and the SAE is the enemy of widespread EV adoption in the US.

    I hope they prove us wrong but I doubt they will."
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It's the SAE's fault Americans don't except the metric system?

    I was under the impression that Chamedo was a Japanese standard, not international? Am I wrong?
    Did Chamedo come out before the level 1 plug standard? The SAE's speed issue aside, I think their proposed standard, that incorporates the current plug, makes more sense from the car design and cost perspective. The iMiEV has the plugs on opposite sides of the car. What is the advantage of being able to do that?

    I have never based a buying decision on the looks of the object's plug. It's a plug not a kitchen faucet.
     
  18. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    Yep, I'm putting the cart before the horse, at least when it comes do designing infrastructure. The cart determines what a road width might need to be, and what suface conditions may need to be. If designing a trail for a horse you'll end up with a narrow and often undriveable road. Designing around the cart is critical.


    I'm not against EV infrastructure, just pointing out that QC is not going to scale or really solve the problem. Maybe ultra-capacitors or things that can take big charges fast will come along and solve the problems, but chances are good they will not use the old infrastrucure. The core infrastructure, electricity supply, is already solved, its all about the connectors and interfaces at the end.

    The core of the infrastructure for L2 is trivial, and much of the money is pumping up companies that are vastly overcharging for installs. SPX, blink and others doing "free" L2 installs are charging 1200-2000K+charger, for what an electrician would really need $400+charger Why? Because they can and because someone else is picking up the check. So for 100Million CA will be getting 10200 chargers, about 9.8K per install. Seems like a great deal to me, or it would if I was in the charger business. The only good business model for chargers is someone else paying for them as if they people charging have to cover the costs over a reasonable time, its not viable.

    The closest one could get to "universal" is if the plans were to provide 120v/240v Plugs with a standard connector for people to plug in their own L1/L2 chargers. They should not be providing EVSEs, just GFI-protected power. (Note, the cost differential for 120v/240v switching EVSE is trivial for the manufacturer, but not happening (though people like EVSEupgrade provide a service. If the infrastructure had plugs, the car owner could bring the EVSE that works for their car. That is NOT, however, the plan. The plan will provide EVSE and QC units.
     
  19. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    +1
    HERE lies a REAL issue. Companies suck up Fed / State / municipality funds, then deliver nothing. Here's a response to a similar question from the leaf board:

    For the life of me - I can't figure out WHY these Q.C. install companies can't be held more responsible ... make 'em install on their own dime - and THEN ... and ONLY then do the get to suck from the government teet.

    .
     
  20. Keiichi

    Keiichi Active Member

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    Doc... I think you seriously misunderstand the point of standards as a whole. Otherwise, we should have had multiple types of gasoline stations to have multiple delivery systems for different gas intake ports for the last 100 years instead of just a few different fuel standards.

    And in Either case, the technology to do the two, if not three variations is still pulling from the same power source, with hardware not that much bigger than a SFF PC. The charging stations currently out there, from the pictures, are obviously bit bigger than that and current gas pumps are about that size as well that a kiosked, two car charge station could support the various technologies easily.