Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by hill, May 4, 2012.
made in '48 -
funny but propaganda and ridiculous
the contract is more what you get in a capitalism world where the big shots call it with pockets they fill with money from the people they take it from ( big ceo's etc )
i do not have to remind you at the crisis thats still not at a end or do i?
and what those people did to help im out is a social=nice thing to do.
i life in a social democracy and there is nothing better then that ( of-course thats my own option and those may vary )
That's great to see. Maybe they'll be inspired to install more.
As part of one of my volunteer activities, I often advise on plans for new developments in town. With only a brief discussion, the most active developer was recently encouraged to add provisions for EV charging in all their new buildings.
For those who think this is giving away something for nothing, how much is your fresh air worth to you?
Who said anything about free??? Of course, there are some folks who think someone else should pay for their fuel. But businesses exist to make money, and most (all?) make their money by selling something.
As the number of EVs increase, the market for electricity on the go will increase, and businesses will start selling electricity. Nowadays the paradigm is expensive charging stations, but I predict metered electrical outlets. Bring your own portable EVSE or charging cord, put some money in the meter (or swipe a credit card) and charge up.
Rates will be high at first, as companies take advantage of desperate drivers, but will come down as competition opens up more choices for the driver.
I fully expect to see meters on charging stations. There's a direct cost associated with providing them, and people will quite likely be happy to pay a reasonable fee for the service.
But...is air really 'free'? Those of us who drive stinkers pollute the atmosphere, and there's no extra charge for that. There's definitely a cost. Why is one thing (free charging) considered outrageous, and another (air pollution) considered to be standard operating practice? It should be the other way around. We should be paying EV drivers for not polluting our lungs and damaging the environment, not charging them for it.
feliz cinco de mayo Dutchman,
Just giving you a better reference than hills cartoon. Socialism is the government ownership or control of production. Ofcourse the cartoon was propaganda, but it is very interesting they used the car industry, and how union, management, farmers, and politicians are portrayed. I'm sure this in the backdrop of fears of communism. What is sad is many of the bad things they say ism will do, the growing US government has done. Patriot act, telling farmers what to plant and patenting gmo crops, union busting by federal and state governments, politicians kept on the party line. Its mostly come true.
We are in a mixed economy as we were in 1948. The financial crisis, you don't think the government had a lot to do with it? They created fannie and freddie, they removed barriers on separation of banking, they ignored responsability to have adequate reserves - both lessons learned in the great depression, but decided they knew better. When some questioned the laws, a chorus of politicians in the senate finance committee and fed kept saying everything is fine, just like in the cartoon. They created laws specifically to allow trading of mortgage backed derivatives by companies that in the early 90s were not even allowed to touch mortgages. They allowed mergers of companies killing competition and making them too big to fail. Then they bailed them out, socializing risk but privatising profit. Fed policy is daily printing money weakening the dollar and giving it to those same financial institutions that were bailed out, so they can pay high bonuses and get bailed out again. Ok that privatising profit is just in all known examples of socialized government not in the theory.
Its really cool that their are 4 different kinds of plug ins at hills work.
EV spots almost have to be free in malls and such...In NYC suburbs for example, residential electric is about 25 cents per kwh. Why would I want to pay 50 cents, unless I was desperate? And lets say I did pay to use it and used 3 kwh for a grand total of $1.50 over 3 hours. And let's assume the store is open 12 hours. The store owner would never make back the investment, plus the cost of their electric at commercial rates.
Again, I am not an EV hater, but I don't see the practicality yet.... of public charging.
1, the local NYC grid often cannot take high daytime loads in the summer
2. the basic rates are quite high
3. if people adopt EVs in almost any numbers greater than .002% of all cars, there will be insufficient public chargers available considering how long it takes to charge.
The best time to charge an EV or PHEV is while you are asleep.
so what your saying is that the current government is already doing what that cartoon is warning about ( the bad things )
i think your right that we are in a mixed environment
the government with the rules and the big company's/wealthy people
but the government is run by people that can be influenced by money
so they are also in the hands of the rich......
and so you have something bad.
capitalism sounds great because you can get a lot of stuff and life a rich life but thats only for parts of the planet and not for all people.
capitalism sound good but there needs to be a less nice sounding description for it.
asocialsime or even better the selfishme that the time we life in not capitalisme but selfishme
its better i stop here otherwise this is going te be a different topic ;-)
This seems backwards to me. We don't pay people for not being criminals. We punish people who are criminals. (Or at least we try to.) We should be charging a hefty fine for people who pollute. If we charged the coal power industry for all its pollution, demand for LEDs, CFLs, and PV systems would skyrocket and wind farms would sprout like weeds. If we taxed gas according to its pollution, EVs would be far more competitive.
Public charging will be precisely for people who are desperate, or whose cars lack the range to make the trip.
Then they'd charge more. And if you were desperate you'd pay. Public charging is not for routine use. It's for when you need it. I've been driving electric for 5 years and I've never charged anywhere except at home.
1. EVs don't draw all that much power.
2. "Quite high" is a relative term. Again, public charging is for when you need it, and then you pay what you must.
3. The number of chargers is not fixed. More are being installed every day. The number will grow as more EVs hit the road. The situation will improve because today there are not yet enough EVs on the road to make commercial for-pay public charging profitable. But the industry is in its infancy.
Absolutely true. That's what I do, and have been doing for a year. (The Tesla allows me to specify when the car will charge. The Xebra charged during the day because I plugged in when I got home and it charged immediately. At home, but I was not yet sleeping. My Tesla charges at midnight. Or maybe I have it set for 1:00 a.m. I don't remember. Definitely while I am sleeping.)
Capitalism is more efficient than socialism at producing goods and services at the lowest price, but it excludes large numbers of people from the mainstream economy, and these people either suffer in poverty or turn to crime to get by.
Socialism is less efficient at producing goods and services, so everything costs more, but if done properly it includes everyone, and destitution is eliminated. You can never eliminate crime, but socialism does not force anyone into crime to survive.
Both systems have the potential (depending on the political will) to operate in an environmentally sustainable manner, or to be environmentally destructive.
Ideally, a libertarian would be a capitalist, on the grounds that everyone should fend for himself without government interference, and a Christian would be a socialist, since Jesus said that people should not own more than what they need for today, and Paul said that the love of money is the root of all evil, and Capitalism is built upon the profit motive, which is the desire to accumulate money.
current and past. Nixon was the most socialist from an economic point of view. The country has reformed in many ways since then but some new abuses of freedom by the government are being added even now. Its a cartoon though, don't take it so seriously.
Mixed simply means a mix of capitalism and socialism. Even the Chinese have a mixed economy today. It should be noted, it is rare for the poor to get richer by making the rich poorer.
Or you have the rich getting controlled by the government. The bigger the government, the more likely the working man is punished.
I think you don't really understand the systems. There is not time in a thread about electric cars to explain the drawbacks of socialism.
Socialists and capitalists both act socially. I am not sure what your specific issue is.
Nothing about capitalism says there should not be a safety net. It is true under true capitalism you can't have a police state.
I have only ever seen a public charger once...and it is not really public. It is in a NYC parking lot and you have to pay to park there to use it...but that's not even the full story.
I park in this lot a few times per month. when the charger was first installed, I asked the attendant if I brought in my EV, how would I use it? he said the credit card machine on it was broken. the second time I asked another attendant, and he said you had to call in advance to make an appointment. So I called the corporate office, and they said there is no charge, and no appointment necessary to use it, and just ask the attendant to plug you in. On a third attempt, I asked the attendant and he said I would probably not be able to use it because they had a regular monthly Parker that used it. Meanwhile I have never seen anyone plugged in.
this is the way EV charging will go in a place like NYC.
That was my point - I purposely phrased my comment the way I did to show the absurdity of our present ways.
Safety nets are good, but insufficient. Whenever bureaucrats decide who qualifies and who does not, people will be left out.
Latin America has had plenty of examples of capitalist police states. Pinochet comes to mind. Fascism is basically capitalism in a police state.
fjpod, before you wipe out all of New York with one big massive generalization, you may want to read the local New York threads on the Leaf chat board:
My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - New York here...
There, you'll find that NY congested living/working areas have the same issues as folks do everywhere in other states' congested living/working areas, and rural areas have the same issues everywhere ... as do frigged areas ... as do hilly/mountainous areas, as do other similarly situated areas/conditions. Charging with limited infrastructure ... is the glass half full or half empty. It it an opportunity? ... or is it a problem. Look at it like my blood type (B+)
Charging infrastucture in a place like NYC will only take off if people can make money on it.
I did not say they were perfect, but the only people that starve here are those that do not know how to get assistance. Mao's agriculture policies had millions die in China under socialism, and many people have starved under castro. There needs to be more than a socialist ideal to lift people out of poverty in socialist countries.
You do not understand chile or capitalism. Chile has an economic system known as social capitalism. Under Pinochet the government owned or controlled many industries. The government still owns the state copper company. Pinochet also instituted government controls of the banks in the '80s. Money from copper mining helps pay for many of the social programs. Under an authoritarian regime like pinochet's you can't get all the way to capitalism, as even the free market reforms he put in place are subject to crony capitalism. You can not be a powerful business man without pledging support for the government. There is state capitalism, which if far from real capitalism that was practiced in Chile before Allende. Don't get me wrong Pinochet's free market reforms were a good thing. The bad was the human rights violating military dictatorship. These things are always bad and we should remember the bad outweighs the good.
Since Chile became democratic, more privatization has taken place. For freedom and a shift further from the Allende policies of state ownership. Poverty has fallen from about 50% in the early 80s to 12%. There is more wealth but also income inequality. All and all a pretty good mixed economy.
In texas people make money from it, but its mainly government money I think of it as priming the pump.
Most businesses here would be happy to install outlets in garages if employees drive plug ins. Its a low cost benefit. In NYC, its probably much more expensive and won't happen.
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