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dash lights on with repeated hissing noise

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by 00-00, Oct 31, 2013.

  1. 00-00

    00-00 Member

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    I've been viewing post on this site for several weeks, and I am quite impressed with the depth of knowledge of the members. Thanks for taking the time to read this.
    Situation: After searching for the Prius that I wanted, I settled on a 2008 Prius Touring with 171xxx miles. The car was at a sales lot 300 miles away. After a few phone calls pertaining to the Prius, I arranged to meet the lot owner roughly 1/2 way in between for the purchase. We met. Owner said that several dash lights came on as they were driving to meet me. (Yes, I believe him.) He talked with his mechanic, and was told that the problem was most likely the ABS control module (p/n 44510-47050). Owner agreed to shipping me a good used ABS module and discounted the vehicle a bit. I drove it home.
    The brake, (!), ABS, and VSC lights are "on"when the car is in the "ready" mode. The parking brake is not on.
    When I walk up to the car (with SKS fob in my pocket) and open the door, I hear a noise that sounds like water running through an outside faucet that's only partially opened. For identification purpose, I will refer to this noise as a "hissing" noise. When in "ready" mode , the ABS system "cycles", with about 4 seconds hissing, then about 10 seconds not hissing, repeated over and over.
    In ready mode (under the hood), the inverter pump is humming away just fine, and the coolant can be seen flowing in it's reservoir.
    My biggest question is that I have read about others with the unwanted dash lights, but not any with this hissing noise. Does the ABS module replacement sound like it will most likely cure the problem?
    And btw, after disconnecting both batteries and waiting for the proper time period, is it really necessary to use the insulated gloves?
    Years ago, I used Toyota repair manuals, and after receiving the Haynes manual, I'm a bit disappointed. On the other hand, it didn't cost $400 either. For the roughly $45, is the Bentley repair manual much better?
    I'd better stop rambling. Thanks again.
     
  2. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

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    Hissing would seem to me to indicate a leakage of pressure in the brake actuator pump. This is the pump that runs when one initially steps on the brake pedal to start the car. It keeps cycling to replenish the pressure that is leaking. These pumps have been known to fail, so it would not be a surprise on a car with that many miles. The change out procedure is given in a post here on PC, or on youtube videos.

    Your description makes this more likely mechanical in nature. It could be the ABS ECU, but there is no way to be sure. See below.

    If the car is off, then the HV battery is completely disconnected, so no high voltage is present. There is no point in disconnecting anything other than the 12V battery for brake work. The glove precaution is IMHO nonsense, more a product of this litigious world than a real safety need. But then I know my way around high voltage systems.

    You need to get the DTC's read for the problem in order to proceed. I would recommend getting the mini VCI from eBay, since you will have some work to do on the car. Otherwise you can pull the blink codes from the ABS system. Procedure is here:
    Traction Control Alarm Malfunction | PriusChat

    Please list the codes. If the problem is indeed the brake actuator pump, see if the dealer will get a used one for you. Otherwise, check with autobeyours.com for a part. If your time is cheap, you could swap the ABS ECU just to see, since you have it already. It is a simple plug in part, once you get into the dash.
     
  3. greasemonkey007

    greasemonkey007 Active Member

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    I'm not an expert on this, since I'm working on my 1st one. I've got an 06 with about 139,000 miles. The 1st problem I had was the display unit went out at 133xxx mi. I changed it out. Not long afterward the car didnt want to start and it had about all the warning lights on. I heard the same water gurgling sound and never figured out what it was. I changed the 12v battery. It started and all the lights came back. Found out that the HV battery had a bad cell. I'm trying to wrap up a balance charge on all 28 modules, which I learned from here. Lots of good info here! Hope you don't have the same problem.
     
  4. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    1. It sounds like the brake actuator pump is not holding hydraulic pressure, which is why you hear the motor running for a short period, repeatedly. You would need to obtain the DTC from the skid control ECU to have more insight into the problem.

    2. The Toyota repair manual advises using the insulated gloves when working on the traction battery, because Toyota is not interested in having anyone suing them due to carelessness during the traction battery replacement procedure, resulting in electrical shock. So you'll have to decide what works for you. However, the traction battery is not the issue here.

    3. Certainly the Bentley manual will be better than Haynes, but your best bet is to subscribe to techinfo.toyota.com and download the needed repair manual pages.
     
  5. 00-00

    00-00 Member

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    Thanks for all of your responses.

    If I did things correctly, I retrieved the following DTC's...

    ! (with circle around the !) 11,13,43,57,69
    ABS 42
    VSC 45
    (!) 22, 24

    While I was there, I checked the voltage of the 12 volt battery.
    The car has been sitting for about 4~5 days.
    #1 11.9
    #2 11.4~11.7 (depending if brake actuator pump is running or not)
    #3 14.1
    To me, these readings seem to indicate that I need to replace the 12 volt battery.

    On 1/12/2013 @ 156,xxx miles, the brake fluid, front pads, and aux battery were all replaced at a Toyota dealership. This may or may not have anything to do with it, just putting it out there.

    Without knowing the meanings of the DTC's, my plan would be to start by replacing both the 12 volt battery and the 44510-47050 assembly.

    Thoughts or insight appreciated.
     
  6. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    At minimum, the 12V battery needs to be fully-charged, then let it rest overnight and see what your voltage readings for #1 and #2 are. Since the battery was replaced 10 months ago, maybe it just needs to be charged. If it has failed, you should be able to get a warranty replacement.

    I agree that it is a reasonable step to replace the skid control ECU given the very large number of fault codes you retrieved. However pls note that you may later find it is also necessary to replace the brake actuator pump.

    The skid control ECU is much easier to replace than the brake actuator pump so you'd might as well start with the ECU. If the brake actuator is replaced, that will require the brake fluid to be replaced by a Toyota dealer or independent who has access to the Techstream diagnostic laptop or equivalent, so that the actuator valves can be opened as needed when purging air out of the lines.
     
  7. 00-00

    00-00 Member

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    I probably wasn't clear on the following:
    I have a used brake actuator. 44510-47050
    I do NOT have another skid control ECU.

    The 12 volt Toyota battery would have been purchased by a previous owner, and in a different state. Would Toyota still warranty the battery? (if it's bad)

    With the 300 mile drive from car lot to my house, I thought that the 12 volt battery should have been fully charged when I parked it, assuming all else is working fine.
     
  8. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

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    Not all of those blink codes make sense. However 69 is "Accumulator Leak Malfunction" which fingers the brake actuator assembly, as suspected. 22 and 24 are about loosing pressure in the front solenoids, which is saying the same thing.

    The others are unclear, but seem to be about power supply issues. I think that the car sat for a while before you got it, and the 12V went a bit flat. These sealed batteries don't like that so well. While the long drive should have charged it, perhaps there is sulfation, and the battery needs a few equalization charge cycles to fully recover.

    With a 12V having high internal resistance from sulfation, the voltage at start up drops too much while the ABS system charges up, and that can trigger some of the blink codes you are seeing. So I would not be concerned about them yet.

    But there is a clear agreement that the brake actuator assembly is needing to be replaced. As pointed out, one needs Techstream to do it. Once that has happened, you can go from there. Keep us posted.
     
  9. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    First, try charging the battery overnight, and see what happens.

    Then, if you decide the battery is bad, look at the date code. If it is less than one year old, your local Toyota dealer might give you a break on a warranty replacement even though you don't have the purchase receipt.

    How long did it take you to drive 300 miles: 5 hours or less? That is not enough time to recharge the 12V battery.

    After you have a fully-charged 12V battery, clear the DTC in the skid control ECU (via the jumper in the OBD-II socket) and see what happens. If you still have a problem, it is reasonable to replace the brake actuator assembly.
     
  10. 00-00

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    Thanks for your replies.
    While I am replacing the brake actuator assy, I will charge the 12v battery.
    It may take me a while, but upon completion I will report back.
     
  11. 00-00

    00-00 Member

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    Still not totally finished, but here's an update.
    I replaced the ABS control module (p/n 44510-47050 (used)), and took the Prius to the dealership to bleed the brakes and to clear codes.
    At first, the tech had 4 codes that wouldn't clear. Now there are only 2 codes that won't clear---C1256, C1345.
    In using the Techstream, the "calibration of linear solenoid valve" is not able to be performed. When this is being attempted, there is a point where the Techstream should flash several of the dash lights. This does not happen--no dash lights illuminate at all. Thus, the calibration fails to set. This is where we are now. The tech did submit a ticket to Toyota, but I haven't spoken to him in several days. The question is what would cause the Techstream to not flash the dash lights?
    The tech did tell me that at one point, all codes were cleared, but he didn't say for how long, or how they appeared again.
    The saga continues...
     
  12. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

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    Please ask the Tech what the "inf code" is for C1256. This is an additional freeze frame that gives more insight into the problem. The C1256 means "Accumulator Pressure Low", which means that the brake ECU is finding the pressure in the actuator is lower than spec after it has run the pump. I am guessing that Techstream would not be able to calibrate the linear solenoid if the pressure is actually low.
     
  13. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Given the presence of DTC C1256, was the brake actuator assembly actually replaced? If so did the tech see anything wrong with the installation?
     
  14. 00-00

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    I replaced the brake actuator assembly with a used unit that is supposed to have about 17xxx miles on it. I specifically asked Russ (master cert ASE for 20 years) about the installation, and he said that everything looked to be fine.
    The last time that I stopped bye to talk to Russ, I mentioned that the vehicle had been sitting for a while, and to be aware of the state of charge in the 12 volt battery. (A low 12 volt battery can cause low accumulator pressure.)
    At first, I was doubting the integrity of the used assy, but he did say that the codes were cleared once.
    I have found that a reading for a properly working accumulator is 3.2 to 4.0 volts. Tomorrow, I plan to ask Russ what the actual reading is for the PACC (sensor for the accumulator).
     
  15. 00-00

    00-00 Member

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    clarification: the codes were cleared by the techstream, and quickly returned when vehicle was started.
    We found the abs motor relay. It had 12v power supply at proper terminal, and we could hear/feel the relay clicking.
    Supposedly, the 12v supplied by this relay goes directly to the brake actuator motor. I hate to say it, but the actuator may be bad.
    There is a steering recall to be performed early next week, and I'll hopefully know more then.
     
  16. Mr.Electric

    Mr.Electric Member

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    Too bad you don't have a known good skid control ecu to test with. There are several on ebay for $60-$80


    That being said I heard about a gen two with the linear control valve code you have that was fixed with a new actuator. Did you look at technical service bulletins regarding the codes yet?
     
  17. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    I suggest that you check the relays providing power to the skid control ECU and the brake actuator. Remove each relay, use a decent digital ohmmeter to identify the coil terminals, and apply 12VDC to those terminals. Then use the digital ohmmeter to measure resistance across the switched terminals. The resistance should be 0.5 ohms or less (after accounting for resistance in the ohmmeter leads.)

    You can find the electrical wiring diagram for your model year at techinfo.toyota.com so that you don't have to guess about what relay does what.
     
  18. Mr.Electric

    Mr.Electric Member

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    I would just check for power at the skid control ecu before going to the relays. I think no power at that ecu would result in no communication with that ecu not a single specific code.
    Could incorrect bleeding make that code appear? That question would be answered in the tsb part of the Toyota info site.
     
  19. 00-00

    00-00 Member

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    Thanks to all that have responded.
    Right now, the challenge is that the accumulator has minimal pressure. The PACC reading is a mere 0.5v, whereas it should be 3.2v to 4.0v. The accumulator motor is not operating. The original brake accumulator motor DID work. I removed the original motor from it's assembly, hooked up 12v to the motor, and heard an odd bearing noise that I originally referred to as the "hissing" noise. Point being, the motor worked previously, thus the power to the motor through the relays was in good working condition. We also know that the relay is still being activated, and that 12v is present at the relay. We also switched 2 of the relays with each other, with no difference. Next, I would want to check for power at the accumulator connecter. The car is still at the dealership having the steering recall performed. In the meantime, there is another used accumulator assy on it's way to me.
     
  20. Mr.Electric

    Mr.Electric Member

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    I would buy a few used parts if you are really stuck. The dealer uses the shot gun approach why shouldn't we. Time is money. $500 in junk yard parts should cover every part of the abs brake system.
    I fixed a complex dual carb mid 80's honda once by replacing 5 or 8 sensors and ecus in one fell swoop. I paid like $100 at the junk yard for the whole group of parts. A local honda specialty shop quoted $1500 to get to the bottom of it and described all the labor involved in trouble shooting the feed back carburetors. My point is, If you have access to cheap parts save some time and order several parts in one sitting. You can always resell what you do not use.