1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Do you believe in Jevons Paradox?

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by burritos, Jun 16, 2008.

  1. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2006
    4,946
    252
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
  2. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    4,717
    79
    0
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Jevon's paradox applied to coal and shipping, if I recall. I think it can apply, but is not a sweeping economic law. How much more do you drive now just because you bought a prius? Probably you driving distances haven't changed much. What about CFLs? You you gonna buy 4x more lamps for your house now? I doubt it. Ditto LCD monitors.
     
  3. stacked

    stacked New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    36
    0
    0
    Location:
    ky
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    For the most part yes. Take for instance refrigerators, they have gotten about twice as effecient in the last 50 years. But................Now they are twice as big, and lots of people have 2 of them, plus a freezer. My guess is a person who switches from a 20 mpg car to a Prius, likely drives alot more in the Prius, maybe n ot twice as much, but more.
     
  4. KayakerNC

    KayakerNC Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    399
    7
    19
    Location:
    Eastern North Carolina
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Not more lamps, but maybe the existing lamps do not get turned off as soon as you leave the room.
    Computers are a good example, as the newer OS (Vista) hogs more memory, even as computer memory improves with newer computers.
     
  5. Scruge

    Scruge New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    97
    0
    0
    Location:
    TX
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Side note... I could never understand why in certain uses the CFL life was less than a few hundred hours. After doing some research I found CFL aren't well suited for frequent and short interval (<15min) applicataions. Like my wife's bathroom habits.
    So I've told her to just leave them on. bulb life has increased but I wonder what its costing my in energy. There are 5 of those 35w CFL PAR reflector bulbs on the one switch.. I think I pay $12 for a 3pk at costco / sam's. I replace one about every 60 days.
    I may return to the old 90w bulbs as I think they are cheaper in the long run.
     
  6. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    18,058
    3,073
    7
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    You need LEDs for that use.

    Tom
     
  7. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,146
    4,137
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    In some cases a Prius owner may drive more because they get better mpg.
    Of the three Prii owners I know, this is not the case. However that isn't necessarily true for everyone.
     
  8. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2006
    4,946
    252
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Well, we don't think twice about taking little day trips where as if cost were an issue, we might have thought otherwise.
     
  9. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    4,717
    79
    0
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Most of the extra ones that I've seen are ancient inefficient pigs. That has more to do with the cheapness of electricity than the efficiency of the refrigerators.
     
  10. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    4,717
    79
    0
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Or perhaps a lower watt incandescent. Would 60W bulbs suffice? Maybe 75W?
     
  11. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    4,717
    79
    0
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    But does that matter? Overall, they're still using less fuel than if they had stuck the the 20 MPG vehicle. If everybody switched to a prius, this country would use less fuel, wouldn't you agree?
     
  12. misslexi

    misslexi Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2008
    130
    0
    0
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    My other car is a 98 3/4 ton Chevy truck with a 454 cu.in. motor, used just to haul horses really. I think long and hard about every trip with that thing, figure 10 mpg when hauling, 15 when not hauling. The pump pain with the Chevy is acute, chronic and frequent.

    But, if I need to move 5000 lbs from A to B, it does it with aplomb.

    Even at $4.30/gallon, I really don't think of the Prius as causing me gas pains :rolleyes:. I'm more inclined to be sloppy about consolidating trips with it to save fuel etc. Throw in a fine sounding stereo, Sirius and a warm, sunny day; there's still a lot of fun to be had driving around the Prius.

    I guess if I looked at it in terms of fuel-miles equivalence, if I'm paying $4.30/gallon to fill the Chevy when it's being used for it's intended purpose, then really I'm paying $0.96/gallon to fill the Prius for it's intended purpose; that's about what I used to pay when I finished college back in 1978.

    Given the cost of fuel, there's a mpg figure which is the "think about it" point when considering a trip. For me, at $4.30/gallon I think the figure is right around 25 mpg, anything less I think about it, anything more, not so much.
     
  13. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2006
    4,946
    252
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Even if everyone drove a prius, then endpoint would be the same, just later.
     
  14. stacked

    stacked New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    36
    0
    0
    Location:
    ky
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Maybe, maybe not. My gut feeling is we(as a country) will just use the car more.

    Thepoint isn't to use less gas, the point is to use NO gas. At the very least no foreign gas.
     
  15. ranchogirl

    ranchogirl New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    235
    0
    0
    Location:
    Southern California
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    One Prius, no. Lots of Priuses - probably not. A trend started by the Prius that could have our entire fleet of vehicles, all brands, be environmentally friendly in one way or another? You bet!

    Eventually the nation - the world - the car manufacturers - will jump on the bandwagon and cars like the Prius will be become standard issue. We, my friends, are driving that bandwagon.

    (And yeah, that makes me feel good) :)
     
  16. hiremichaelreid

    hiremichaelreid New Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    451
    6
    0
    Location:
    Ottawa/Aylmer, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Model:
    I
    Doesn't matter to me. I chose Prius for economics, not environment. Environmental pollution reduction is a bonus, if true.

    Here's a question: If you had a gas pig, instead of a Prius, would you drive less ? Perhaps yes, due to gas cost. So in effect you DO drive more because you own a Prius.

    I'm considering road trips I wouldn't otherwise consider, but that's partly a "new cool car" phenomenon. But I might drive farther due to better mileage.

    Has my carbon "footprint" been reduced ? Absolutely, IMO. I'm also excited enough about saving both money AND reducing pollution that I'm looking for other ways to do that, whether hydro-electric heat, bio-diesel, heat pumps, electric bikes etc.

    Regardless, I'm sorry to say, we may be behind the 8-ball already, with Global Warming, Pollution and Peak Oil economic impacts. On the plus side, gas and oil prices may now be doing what decades of eco-attempts have failed to do.
     
  17. Wolfie52

    Wolfie52 Senior "Jr" Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    143
    124
    1
    Location:
    No. Carolina
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    This thread has been dead a while, but I must add to it.

    When I was looking to purchase a Prius, I found it extremely difficult to find a model with reasonable mileage commensurate with its age. I was not going to pay full price for a new model, and wanted to get a good (used) car that got good mileage. I almost got a car other than a Prius because the mileage was always so high (15-20K per year of age) compared to other cars (which average 12k per year). I was finally able to get a great deal on a low mileage Prius, of which I am glad, as I enjoy all the features and great mileage.

    But this got me to thinking about Jevons paradox. Is the high mileage a result of people knowing they are using less fuel and causing less CO2 emissions, or because people who drive a lot will buy a car like the Prius? Were gas prices for all of the last decade like they were in '08 ($4+/gal) I would say the latter. But my feeling is having a Prius really does cause people to drive more, hence reinforcing the idea of Jevons paradox.

    With Peak Oil most likely here, I still try to limit my driving so if there is a real shortage I will not have to change my habits. But I do sometimes get that feeling that it is OK to drive a bit more than I used to!
     
  18. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    4,884
    976
    0
    Location:
    earth
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    We drive way less now than we did (all else being equal) a few years ago. We plan and consolidate trips more, and go to town together rather than separately. We also have downsized my work truck from a 3/4 ton to a '82 vw caddy (rabbit) pick up.

    We do still drive across the country coast to coast at least twice a year, for years we did it in a Suburban (11 mpg) or a Syncro VW Westy 18mpg, then downsized to a Subaru Outback (28 mpg) and now the Prius ~52 mpg. So we are using ~1/5 the gas then we were AND driving less over all.

    Icarus
     
  19. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    9,083
    5,795
    0
    Location:
    Undisclosed Location
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A

    Yes, it makes a difference. Why? Because even if you believe and want to apply Jevons Paradox to Prius ownership, Prius Ownership is more than just being more efficient in using resources. That's all debatable. But remember the Prius was originally designed to create less emissions, for use in large cities. That does make a difference. Even if you want to debate that the creation of the battery and/or the efficiency of the gas engine under Jevons Paradox would negate any benefit, there is no arguing that Hybrids and Electrics produce less emissions than ICE engines alone.

    So yes, I think it makes some people feel better, and yes, I think it can make a damn difference. But it more clearly makes a difference due to the less emissions formed than the more efficient gas consumption, but as owners of course you get to enjoy both benefits.
     
  20. hampdenwireless

    hampdenwireless Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2005
    1,104
    86
    0
    Location:
    Baltimore MD
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    I am an early adopter on LED lighting and for the most part I am disappointed. I have bought good LED's and cheap ones and they all dim greatly over a short time period. The specs say 3 year life and the price point makes it necessary for it to last that long to pay for the LED bulb. In the real world they last less then a year before they are too dim to use.

    Where have they done the best? My flashlight for sure, its SUPER bright and the batteries last forever now. Due to its intermittent use, the LED bulb is very bright after two years.

    As a note 1/4 of the Ikea LED lights have failed after just one year.

    CFL's have worked for me and they do not fall under Jevons Paradox. Our electric usage is down 40% greatly due to CFL's and a set back thermostat.