Discussion in 'Toyota Prius Plug-in' started by Bill3888, Jun 27, 2012.
Turn your climate control off. I bet you'll see 11+ EV miles on a full charge.
bill3888, any luck at the dealer?
That you start downhill has minimal relevance, what's your top speed? What're the rest of your driving conditions? Too many variables here, but there's no reason yo think there's a problem.
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It's unlikely that that starting trips down hill will increase the EV range, in fact, quite the opposite for two reasons:
1) If you are starting with a full charge, then there is little to no empty battery capacity to store regenerative braking energy going downhill. It's discussed thoroughly here: Full-battery downhill engine start is a pain! | PriusChat
2) The presence of hills means that more electric power will be used to climb those hills compared to flat terrain.
is it possible that bill is pulling our collective legs?
However, it does still happen... for small amounts anyway. Leaving the ramp on the bottom exit means driving down 7 levels for me. That bumps up EV range about 0.3 mile beyond "full".
I have a base model Plug In with 5000 miles. I drive from San Bernardino to Morongo Valley twice a week. Since you are in Riverside, you probably know the road. Leaving SB, I use EV to the freeway, and press HV a bit before reaching the freeway. Then it is HV all the way up to Beaumont, and EV all the way down to where highway 62 leaves the freeway, and HV up to Morongo Valley. This operation leaves the ICE off for the long distance from Beaumont to the 62, and my overall MPG is around 80. I do the reverse on the return trip. After a full charge, my EV range is often in the 18+miles, although today it was only 17.7 miles. It would be interesting to compare the two cars under the same conditions, since my car shows so many more EV projected miles.
I'm in the same boat as you and have escalated it to Toyota corporate. So far, the gal that has been assigned to me has been great at follow up phone calls, but no answers. I was told to meet with the svc. manager at the dealer where I bought it. Mind you, I had already taken it in twice prior to contacting corporate and the service tech at the dealer said he was never trained on this car...... strike 1, Toyota. So after speaking with the gal for my case, she put a call into the dealer and then notified me that I am to reach out to the svc. mgr. there to let him have the car for a day or two to evaluate the situation (use my car as a guinee pig was my gut). But I followed protocol and her request. So the last email I received from the dealer when trying to coordinate him checking out my car, was in a very rude tone, "If the master service light is not on, then there is really nothing I can do for you". Strike 2 toyota - train your service managers on the cars you sell and maybe tell them that good customer svc. should always be practiced as well. So now I have another email into her and plan to follow up with her this week, as my EV miles after full charge are hovering around 8.7 now!!!!!! I've heard all of the assumptions that my driving habits must be doing it - and if a soccer mom watching out for the safety of her kids, driving conservatively in a suburban town is not the kind of habit for the PIP, then what is?? There is simply a flaw or a mis-statement by toyota as what the true EV miles can be, and I at this point feel misled. At 13.9 EV, the car fit my lifestyle great - would still be on 1st tank. But with 8.7, not so much.......
I will keep you posted and suggest that you reach out to toyota corporate as well.......... for the sake of the woman's sanity that I'm dealing with, I'm not going to post her info. here, as I know she will be hit by many, as this is not just you and I dealing with this..... This is a BIG problem for Toyota and they need to fix it pronto........The Volt is looking better and better to me everyday.......
Seems to me a simple readout of the Kwh at full charge compared to the spec would resolve this.
On a slightly related note, how far is your total estimated range on a full tank of gas? I imagine polling everyone here will produce results that varies wildly. If your estimated range is lower would you then take this issue to the dealer as well?
That's a great idea. I would be very enlightening to see what everyone is getting for an estimated range with a full gas tank. I bet some people get a 400 mile estimate and others get a 600 mile estimate with the same amount of gas in the tank. And I know some people actually drive over 1,000 on a tank but I doubt the estimate would go that high.
I'll post my estimated range the next time I fill up.
Estimated range is based on what the car "thinks" you are going to do. If you arrive home having just driven downhill, it will have a larger estimate than if you arrive home having just gone uphill. Same charge at full, will produce different answers. And the estimate is a time-weighted function of travel, so yesterday matters, just not as much. If you mash it on the highway one day, it will impact the next few. Best to report what you actually get on the charge, not what the car things.
Also @CraijCSJ, you seem to be doing what some folks here call "stacking" you are using regeneration on down-hills to increase the "EV" range, and using HV uphills. That is fine if it increases your overall trip MPG (and data here suggests it might), but it is a tad misleading to folks trying to figure out how you get so much EV range when they are only getting 10.. you are effectively using the ICE to help charge (ICE drive you up a hill in HV, switching to EV to regen on downhill, then switch to HV (effectively hold chareg) on uphill. But that only helps if people are actually using the ICE at all, those trying to avoid ICE cannot gain by sacking.
I don't disagree with anything you said but you completely missed my point. I am talking about how best to illustrate your point to people who don't get it.
The est range is only partially based on how much fuel you have (liquid or electric) and the other huge factor is the driving conditions. People get very concerned about battery capacity or changing problems when they see the est electric range lower than expected or different than it was they day they got their new car. So by focusing on est range of the GAS fuel we can illustrate the point that even when the fuel is at full capacity, different people get different estimated range. And it's not because of a problem with the capacity of the fuel storage or filling.
I really hope many people post the est range of a full gas tank.
Where in the promotion of a PLUG-IN HYBRID are you seeing "true" EV miles?
It's only an estimate, based upon previous driving data. And even if the value is low, that doesn't mean it's what you actually get.
What are you actually getting for the resulting MPG and the values on the Driving Ratio screen?
I was having the same issue. My EV mileage was declining and I was under 11 with the AC off. I finally figured out that the 2 miles I was driving downhill in the AM, which added a few tenths of range, was killing me on the return trip. When I drove up that road on the way home, I could see the EV range decreasing quickly. So I decided to try switching to HV mode for this part of the drive. My range started to increase 1 or 2 tenths every day. It took almost four weeks of doing this to get it up to about 15.1 at a full charge. It's important to note that you have to switch to HV mode at least a mile before you want it to take affect. It's takes that long for the ICE to getting fully up to speed. If you switch just before the uphill section, you won't get the benefit. The estimated EV range is based upon a long term view of your driving habits. One or two days is not going to change the range.
Ahh.. now I see what you want to do. You want to show them how much the estimate varies, including a full tank of gas.
I think the EV range is far more sensitive/variable (it is in the Volt) to variations so using the Gas estimate may actually increase the anxiety. The actual miles may change mroe (since its multiplied by gas tank energy), but the percentage may be smaller.
Does anyone know if the PiP manage different estimation algorithms for CS (ICE) and CD(EV), or does it estimate an overall driver efficiency and use that? Might be able to estimate to see how much the ICE range estimate changes as the EV is either treated gingerly or aggressively (have to subract the EV range to see the impact). I know the Volt is slightly impacted by ev driving efficiency but the changes are less that 25% as large as the EV range is impacted. So it seems like a mixed mode kalman filter with both multiple samples in time and differently weighted samples in CS_mode and CD_mode.
But are you then arriving home with EV left (which would be a waste -- what's more important reducing gas usage, or keep up some "stat" in the car display?
Or are you saying that even after you have depleted the battery you get better estimated range by switching to HV for the final hill climb? I could see the value of switching to HV to allow better warm up of the ICE before you actuall need it being better for MPG.. but it would be surprising if switching to HV when the car has already used the battery would produce lower EV estimates.
Yes, I am arriving home with EV range and am using gas. But I have only been doing this to prove the theory that it takes a long time to get the EV range up, and that the terrain that you drive has a major impact upon the range. Once I figure out what the max is that it will get to on my work route, I will go back to full use of EV. I also took mine to the dealer complaining about the range - until I figured out the issue. And I would agree with some of the above posts - the dealers may try, but they really don't have the training or the tools to evaluate the LI batteries.
I'm not sure how the car's computer is coming up with an EV range estimate, but if we knew that algorithm, it'd be much easier to analyze the variability in our observations.
Its possible that what you are experience is just the fact that your car is registering the last "uphill" section as its model of your travel. I cannot say for sure, but I've been though this and help many Volt owners understand these type of algorithms. As I said in a previous post, the estimation algorithms are a function of your driving patterns.
People keep asking about your actual milage because if your only getting 10 miles every day, then its reasonable the car only estimates 9.6 If you have strong uphills and drive the 10 or the 60 uphill at 60mph, it can eat a battery fast.
Here is something to try.. take your car downhill on EV (hopefully a long downhill section. use HV to save battery if needed), and then charge it down there as opposed to home. At least then the last few miles of driving will have been an energy efficient EV cycle. See if that increases your estimated range. (Though it does seem the PHV's range estimate is generally slow to change, I've seen this approach show people the volt range estimate is dependent on their driving..
simple solution, measure the Kwh after a full charge and see if it is within specs.
bill? hello? anybody home?
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