Fallacy; The Troll's True Vulnerability

PRIUSchatters, we can do a whole lot better in dealing effectively with
trolls and other malicious posters whose purpose is to get us all riled
up... which they too often do.

The most effective response is quiet, reasoned, and factually correct.
An effective way to do this is to identify the underlying vulnerability of
the posters unsupported rantings which are typically based purely on
fallicies; statements which are logically unsupportable. Check this out:

Fallacies

The examples of the many common fallacies clearly show how typical
rants arising from anger or ignorance are riddled with self-defeating,
easily identified and exposed fallacies. These can be exploited.

When the common fallacy that is used as support for the ranting
poster's statements is correctly identified, that statement
is by definition unsupported and it is invalid. It can be challenged or
even dismissed as such, and it does not require a direct response.

Two examples:
"Everybody knows that the Prius battery will burn out in 100k miles."

Response: "Everybody knows no such thing. Your claim is based on the
common Fallacy: Appeal to Belief, If you want to have a serious
discussion, you need to provide real, verifiable documentary support
for your claimed battery life; sites, cites, articles, pictures, etc."

"Well, of course you brain washed, liberal, tree hugging Prius scum
believe that."

Response: "This is just the tired, old Ad Hominem Attack Fallacy ."

I expect this type of response will result in either of:
* some evidentiary support being provided, in which case the alleged
"facts" can be discussed.
* the troll cranks up the attack in an effort to make us crazy with
anger. In which case no further response is needed... simply another
case of 'Ho hum, Don't feed the troll."

A caution: there is a hazard here. This tool is a true double-edged
sword. Any post in which it is used itself must be carefully checked
against the list of fallacies. Otherwise you can look really foolish ,
dumb , or stupid .

Excellent post, though it suffers from what I believe to be, well, a fallacy. And that is that the true troll -- as opposed to a skeptic -- believes his argument to be logical (he does not) and he is capable of reason (he is not). He merely seeks to incite and inflame. It matters not how much data, research, facts and logic you throw at him. I suppose you could argue that countering his attack with logic shows him to be the fool that he is. But he does a fine job of that on his own with no help needed from us. Therefore, my philosophy -- and admonition to the masses -- always is, "Don't feed 'em."

A little more discernment and patience is needed for the skeptic. Skeptics either can be open-minded or close-minded. The former gets the facts before making a decision; it is him I hope to educate. The latter makes his decision without bothering with the facts; it is him I won't waste my time with. Very similar to the troll approach, in fact.

Trolls, however, do not care about the validity of their arguments. They just want to engage people in a shouting and/or flaming war. The best response, IMO is to ignore them completely, report the post, and have the mods delete it.

However, your suggestions are valid for the sort of rants that some regular members engage in, which are less likely to be directed against the car we all share an admiration for, and more likely to be in the politics forum. (Which I try --not always successfully-- to stay away from.)

A pity administrators don't delete obvious troll threads or posts as much as they should. You can recognize troll threads by the misleading titles designed to trump up controversy. And then there are the political hatenuts. They have been active the past couple of days for obvious reasons.

JimboK and Daniel,

Thank you for your responses. They have merit and I'm taking them
as valid, constructive comments.

Tony,

It was your calm, well reasoned response to the "A question for all
Prius drivers" thread that got me seriously thinking about this matter.
You see, I was one of the jerks that took leave of their senses in
making posts there.

Don't I know! After a particularly boneheaded response of mine in
another thread a while back, you PMed me with the clear reminder
that I was out of hand. No threats were made and I thought I had gotten
the message. But despite my best intentions, I got sucked into a troll
baiting frenzy again.

Well, I've now gone on record with my best shot at a way to handle a
troll. From here on out, I've got a lot to lose if I backslide again. I do
not like to eat crow.

I quite enjoy feeding trolls sometimes. Bit like feeding other animals by hand.

I think the OP is a scum sucking troll intent on spreading his half-baked slop as real ideas. Even his name sounds stupid.



Tom

I like that last idea. Perhaps a more severe policy against emotional responses to borderline posts, rigorously enforcing calm discussion on threads that have the potential to go ballistic.

Documenting the behavior of antagonists became a priority for me 3 years ago. So, this paper was written. Turns out that most of it is still dead-on. Knowing what to look for, you can spot what they are up to fairly easy.
.

Some trolls are cute.

Naked with wild colored hair will do that.

Watch out for dwarfs. They carry heavy arsenal, like battle axes.
.

I see no dwarf here.

Well, perhaps you should.

Talking about the hard-core troll - not the generic variety. A few actually lurk two weeks after banning - are they mental or what? Another one came back as a sock 15 times then invited a couple of dozen of his buddies one week.

Fortunately, most trolls are not that bad.


I get nervous when a newbie's 1st post is an ad or some kind of incitement.

When a newbie starts out unfriendly, I will ask about their ride and their drives - identification....trollers HATE to be identifiable as it limits the things they can BS about.

The other thing trollers can't stand is if immediately the reply is a sound rebuttal link to Dust to Dust, Sudbury, etc. - they get lonely.

Nothing that a 500 lb JDAM can't remedy!!!

"I think the OP is a scum sucking troll intent on spreading his half-baked
slop as real ideas. Even his name sounds stupid."

LMAO

qbee42,

:welcome: to PRIUSchat.

I see that you've used the tired, old Ad Hominem Attack Fallacy. :nono:
If you want to have a serious discussion, you need to provide real,
verifiable documentary support for your statement; sites, cites,
articles, pictures, etc.

:frusty:

:brickRokeby)
Tom

LOL

There is definitely a way to eliminate troll posts at least on this board. It would eliminate all the man hours required to get rid of the crap we never get to see. Here's my solution, plain and simple. Require people that want to be a part of this community a nominal fee to join via paypal. Let's say five bucks as an example. The person that runs this board gets compensated via ad revenue however, I wouldn't mind spending $5 for the privilege of being able to post here. If that were the case you would only have hard core Prius owners/future owners participating. I see nothing wrong with it at all. The owner of this board can even choose to donate the proceeds of this membership to some type of charity. Please tell me why this would not work.

Number 1: It would greatly reduce the number of legitimate participants, as many people refuse to pay even a nominal fee to post on a chat board.

Number 2: The reduced number of participants would lower the fees Danny could charge advertisers. I don't know the economics, but I imagine ads (on a site like this one, with high readership and participation) generate far more revenue than membership fees would do.

It costs money for server space and bandwidth. I doubt that membership fees would pay the costs.