1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

February 2014 - Hybrid Dashboard

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Mar 4, 2014.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,068
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Column 1
    0 [tr][th]model[th]Feb_14[th]Jan_14[th]Dec_13[th]Nov_13
    1 [tr][td2]Toyota Prius Liftback[td2]7396[td2]7205[td2]9881[td2]9801
    2 [tr][td2]Ford Fusion Hybrid[td2]3096[td2]2607[td2]2768[td2]2769
    3 [tr][td2]Toyota Prius C[td2]2681[td2]2467[td2]2810[td2]3001
    4 [tr][td2]Toyota Camry Hybrid[td2]2517[td2]1978[td2]2726[td2]2994
    5 [tr][td2]Jetta Diesel[td2]2073[td2]2026[td2]2894[td2]2936
    6 [tr][td2]Sonata[td2]1907[td2]1340[td2]2121[td2]1866
    7 [tr][td2]Toyota Prius V[td2]1743[td2]1730[td2]2110[td2]2227
    8 [tr][td2]Passat Diesel[td2]1696[td2]1524[td2]2209[td2]2432
    9 [tr][td2]Nissan Leaf[td2]1425[td2]1252[td2]2529[td2]2003
    10 [tr][td2]Tesla Model S*[td2]1400[td2]1300[td2]1700[td2]1400
    11 [tr][td2]Ford C-Max Hybrid[td2]1301[td2]947[td2]1201[td2]1457
    12 [tr][td2]Lexus CT200h[td2]1230[td2]1290[td2]1787[td2]1002
    13 [tr][td2]Chevrolet Volt[td2]1210[td2]918[td2]2392[td2]1920
    14 [tr][td2]Toyota Prius Plug In[td2]1041[td2]803[td2]919[td2]1100
    15 [tr][td2]Kia Optima Hybrid[td2]960[td2]777[td2]990[td2]1233
    16 [tr][td2]ES Hybrid[td2]945[td2]866[td2]1706[td2]1393
    17 [tr][td2]MKZ[td2]919[td2]726[td2]754[td2]852
    18 [tr][td2]3-Series Diesel[td2]916[td2]486[td2]1322[td2]815
    19 [tr][td2]Accord Hybrid[td2]910[td2]525[td2]426[td2]530
    20 [tr][td2]Fusion Energi[td2]779[td2]533[td2]791[td2]870
    21 [tr][td2]RX 400 / 450 h[td2]621[td2]637[td2]1153[td2]1105
    22 [tr][td2]Avalon Hybrid[td2]613[td2]970[td2]1480[td2]1532
    23 [tr][td2]5-Series Diesel[td2]576[td2]241[td2]471[td2]280
    24 [tr][td2]Ford C-Max Energi[td2]552[td2]471[td2]827[td2]941
    25 [tr][td2]Chevrolet Cruze Diesel[td2]508[td2]357[td2]495[td2]546
    26 [tr][td2]Lacrosse Hybrid[td2]506[td2]445[td2]447[td2]430
    27 [tr][td2]BMW X5 Diesel[td2]501[td2]317[td2]7[td2]32
    28 [tr][td2]Honda Civic Hybrid[td2]443[td2]439[td2]712[td2]1031
    29 [tr][td2]Q5 Diesel[td2]422[td2]483[td2]768[td2]523
    30 [tr][td2]GL-Class Diesel[td2]415[td2]312[td2]346[td2]528
    31 [tr][td2]Golf Diesel[td2]366[td2]386[td2]434[td2]518
    32 [tr][td2]ML Class Diesel[td2]364[td2]267[td2]458[td2]469
    33 [tr][td2]Cayenne Diesel[td2]350[td2]268[td2]276[td2]412
    34 [tr][td2]Honda Insight[td2]339[td2]317[td2]418[td2]402
    35 [tr][td2]Q50 Hybrid[td2]328[td2]59[td2]91[td2]
    36 [tr][td2]Honda CR-Z[td2]318[td2]267[td2]384[td2]295
    37 [tr][td2]Q7 Diesel[td2]310[td2]291[td2]655[td2]374
    38 [tr][td2]GLK Class Diesel[td2]298[td2]259[td2]429[td2]403
    39 [tr][td2]Volkswagen Jetta Hybrid[td2]232[td2]224[td2]360[td2]394
    40 [tr][td2]E-Class Diesel[td2]229[td2]204[td2]306[td2]298
    41 [tr][td2]Malibu Hybrid[td2]202[td2]232[td2]266[td2]425
    42 [tr][td2]A6 Diesel[td2]202[td2]205[td2]336[td2]265
    43 [tr][td2]Touareg Diesel[td2]195[td2]192[td2]233[td2]264
    44 [tr][td2]Pathfinder Hybrid*[td2]191[td2]265[td2]334[td2]
    45 [tr][td2]QX60 Hybrid*[td2]135[td2]238[td2]374[td2]
    46 [tr][td2]Focvs EV[td2]129[td2]100[td2]158[td2]130
    47 [tr][td2]Beetle Diesel[td2]123[td2]155[td2]174[td2]170
    48 [tr][td2]forTwo EV[td2]122[td2]97[td2]167[td2]153
    49 [tr][td2]Highlander Hybrid[td2]105[td2]145[td2]272[td2]332
    50 [tr][td2]Toyota RAV4 EV[td2]101[td2]63[td2]28[td2]62
    51 [tr][td2]Regal Hybrid[td2]88[td2]78[td2]93[td2]187
    52 [tr][td2]Spark[td2]71[td2]93[td2]76[td2]87
    53 [tr][td2]Cayenne Hybrid[td2]64[td2]45[td2]55[td2]58
    54 [tr][td2]A8 Diesel[td2]59[td2]44[td2]92[td2]
    55 [tr][td2]ELR[td2]58[td2]41[td2]6[td2]
    56 [tr][td2]Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid[td2]57[td2]141[td2]47[td2]4
    57 [tr][td2]A7 Diesel[td2]55[td2]70[td2]104[td2]92
    58 [tr][td2]ILX Hybrid[td2]42[td2]27[td2]44[td2]44
    59 [tr][td2]500E*[td2]40[td2]35[td2]50[td2]60
    60 [tr][td2]Impala Hybrid[td2]38[td2]34[td2]35[td2]16
    61 [tr][td2]Honda Civic[td2]37[td2]66[td2]118[td2]136
    62 [tr][td2]Fit EV[td2]33[td2]30[td2]51[td2]23
    63 [tr][td2]Audi Q5 Hybrid[td2]24[td2]36[td2]43[td2]38
    64 [tr][td2]Accord Plug In[td2]24[td2]27[td2]38[td2]68
    65 [tr][td2]Lexus GS 450h[td2]23[td2]30[td2]44[td2]25
    66 [tr][td2]ActiveHybrid 5 (535ih)[td2]18[td2]22[td2]52[td2]47
    67 [tr][td2]ActiveHybrid 3 (335ih)[td2]18[td2]9[td2]87[td2]56
    68 [tr][td2]E400H[td2]15[td2]23[td2]20[td2]20
    69 [tr][td2]M Hybrid[td2]14[td2]44[td2]33[td2]33
    70 [tr][td2]LS 600h[td2]11[td2]11[td2]6[td2]5
    71 [tr][td2]S-Class Diesel[td2]6[td2]31[td2]36[td2]26
    72 [tr][td2]Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid[td2]6[td2]8[td2]31[td2]28
    73 [tr][td2]Cadillac Escalade Hybrid[td2]4[td2]9[td2]7[td2]13
    74 [tr][td2]7-Series ActiveHybrid[td2]3[td2]3[td2]5[td2]3
    75 [tr][td2]i[td2]3[td2]1[td2]11[td2]12
    76 [tr][td2]Chevrolet Silverado Hybrid[td2]3[td2]1[td2]5[td2]4
    77 [tr][td2]GMC Yukon Hybrid[td2]2[td2]4[td2]19[td2]10
    78 [tr][td2]S400HV Hybrid[td2]2[td2]1[td2]2[td2]3
    79 [tr][td2]Volkswagen Touareg Hybrid[td2][td2]3[td2]2[td2]
    80 [tr][td2]GMC Sierra Hybrid[td2][td2][td2]1[td2]3
    Source: Jeff Cobb's Hybrid Market Dashboard - HybridCars.com (well worth reading!)

    Bob Wilson
     
    Tracksyde likes this.
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    thanks bob!(y)
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    dismal, except for hyacc and hymkz.
     
  4. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,309
    3,586
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I am wondering how many PiP's and Volts and Energi's are being sold in CA for green pass HOV access. If so, we may see PHEV sales drop off later in 2014 after the green stickers are sold out...maybe some good deals too
     
    cycledrum likes this.
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    agreed, cali is not a good indicator of peoples motives.
     
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,597
    11,224
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    The entire market was dismal. The only ones up over Febuary 2013 were Subaru(24%), Chrysler group(11.4%), Mercedes-Benz (3.8%), and Audi added 4 sales over the previous Feb. Everybody else was down to some degree.
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,068
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Here we go in graphs:
    [​IMG]
    Good slopes in order both long and short term:
    • Sonata - still building but good long and short term rates
    • Camry - good recovery, keep it up
    • Ford Fusion - both absolute volume and rate, still not a Prius killer but a contender
    The Prius hatchback remains the 'elephant in the room' but since September 2013, it has been shrinking as a share of the market. In one respect this is good because it means others have finally figured out how to get market share in the hybrid market. But in another, what is happening in the USA product mix?

    Wards recently posted an article that the new vehicle, USA fleet mileage increased in January. What this means is even basic cars and trucks are getting 'less bad', which takes the buyer's focus off of the bottom-line, mileage. This is a good thing for the USA fleet average but it also means a buyer is not going to say 'f*ck it' and get the Prius IF they can get 'good enough' with a cheaper car that looks more traditional.

    [​IMG]
    Breathing hard:
    • Jetta diesel - about to be eclipsed by Sonata
    • Passat and Prius V - interesting horse race, wonder where it is going
    These are the lower tier vehicles, which reminds me of 'shifting the rubble.' They are not overtaking the Prius as much as "we're here too." Like the old joke of the three bulls seeing the farmer return with a huge, snorting Brama bull. The first said,"Well he can have some of my heffers." The second said,"I agree, a few of my heffers are OK." But the third and smallest bull started snorting and pawing the ground. The first bull said,"What are you doing Diesel? He will kill you!" And the smallest bull said,"I just want him to know I'm not a heffer."

    Prius people are early adopters and more than a little anal about mileage. For me, MPG predates any 'energy crisis' as I bought bought a VW MicroBus years before the 1973 oil embargo. But I'm not alone in having a life-long fondness for fuel efficient transportation. So I'm not the least bit surprised at how many Prius owner have migrated to plug-ins and EVs.

    Bob Wilson
     
  8. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,309
    3,586
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    According to Plug-In America (see home page) 179,652 Plug_ins have been sold in America.

    Are we saying 35,000 are CA HOV green sticker owners (PHEV) and I do not know how many CA HOV white sticker owners (EV) they have so far?
     
  9. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,084
    1,782
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    I don't think prices will drop much from what they are now. Unless the regular Prius drops some, there just isn't a lot of room for the PiP to go down. It will never drop below the price of a similarly equipped regular Prius.
     
  10. Tracksyde

    Tracksyde Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2011
    1,429
    761
    0
    Location:
    So Cal
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    The green stickers are at about 35,000 as you said. The white sticker, is right around there also. A co-worker just got a Leaf a few weeks ago and if I recall, his sticker was around 34,000. I remember thinking at the time the green sticker count had caught up and was about to pass the white stickers soon.
     
    wjtracy likes this.
  11. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    2,168
    764
    0
    Location:
    Portugal
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    One thing makes me wonder.
    How come Lexus sells hybrids low, and still makes a sucessful premium brand in US?
    Does IS350, GS350 and RX350 and SC/LS460 sell that many over there?
    These have been almost discontinued in Europe, in favor of h versions...
     
  12. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,309
    3,586
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    FWIW, this would say about 37-38% of Plug_ins sales to date are CA HOV sticker vehilces alone. If we guesstimate 80% of CA Plug_ins owners have HOV stickers (if someone has a better guesstimate pls advise) we are approaching 45 to 50% of Plug_ins are sold in CA to date? Does that sound reasonable?

    Wikipedia has a great article on Plug_ins in America, but looks like state-by-state cumulative sales breakdown data is not available. So my estimate above is only thing I've seen so far.

    Plug-in electric vehicles in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,597
    11,224
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Cheap gas mostly, and few other incentives for getting a hybrid.

    With most hybrid buyers doing it to save fuel costs, the luxury premium of a Lexus probably isn't seen as worth it. Then most of the Lexus hybrids are power ones. So the fuel savings are slight over the non-hybrid version. Then the cost of some of the non-hybrids put them in the 'if you can afford the car, you can afford the gas' category.

    The CT200 was the only efficiency hybrid Lexus had until recently, and it is the most popular of them. The new ES hybrid is the other one with good fuel economy numbers, and is the second most popular Lexus hybrid. Being an Avalon with fancier trim, I am actually surprised the Lexus is outselling the Toyota. Some major feature must be worth the higher price, or the final sale prices are close enough to make stepping up a brand a no brainer.
     
  14. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    How many Plugin Carpool stickers will California hand out?

    Honda sales == the suck. Civic hybrid has dropped almost as low as the discontinued insight and CRz. Maybe CH will disappear too.
     
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,597
    11,224
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Honda dug their own hole with their issues with the NiMH packs. Which has left many gun shy about buying any of their hybrids.

    The current Civic hybrid and the new Accord and Fit use lithium though. Hopefully their battery problems are behind them. The Civic is still using IMA though. The press for the new systems may have people waiting for it to show up in the Civic.
     
  16. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    If the problem is deep-discharge of the NiMH, switching to lithium won't fix the problem (especially since Li is even more sensitive).

    Also IMA is actually more gentle with batteries than the new design with EV mode. The IMA only pulled 10-15 hp from the battery. The new design is about 5 times more current/stress for the battery.

    BTW I haven't heard any failures in the original Accord Hybrid (2004-2007). Probably because its power came mainly from the V6 not the battery.
     
  17. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,527
    4,057
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A

    California had about 34% of the plug-in market according to anouther source, so if 179,000 plug-ins have been sold, 59,000 should be in caifornia. The key is what will happen after the green stickers run out

    http://media.transportevolved.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Screen-Shot-2014-02-27-at-14.02.08.png
    [​IMG]

    That's not good for the prius phv and volt as 57% of prius phv and 27% of volt drivers said the number one reason to buy the car was the sticker. Since the prius phv is only sold in a limited number of states and hov stickers are a primary motivator, its likely much more than 33% of them are in calfornia. From the rest of that survey, everyone wants more range, a lot more
    [​IMG]
     
  18. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,527
    4,057
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    You probably missed something. The Toyota/Ford charge discharge of nimh is only between 40%-80%, but keep the cars away from parking at the high or low charge level. Part of honda's problem was leaving the battery in a bad state of charge. The new lithium battery produces 30% more power, and has a bigger usable range of SOC, both when operating and sitting. Did Honda do the software right for the new battery? Odds are they did, but i don't know why you would want to take the chance when the fusion and camry hybrids are so similar, and both companies have better hybrid experience.

    Who told you lithium is more sensitive to SOC range, it has a higher usable range. Lithium though needs more complex electronics to prevent over charging.

    I haven't seen the specs, but I would bet that honda is more within the envelope of the new battery.
    Higher failure rate on the gen 2 civic. I have no idea if accord hybrid batteries failed more or less often than the gen I civic, but they certainly sold less of the cars to warm climates. More ice power would also make it less likley to park the car in an undercharged condition.
     
  19. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    I used EV mode to drain a Prius empty (and them the engine kicked on). What if I had turned-off the car? Would that leave the battery sitting at a "bad" 40%?

    I thought about the carpool sticker (as motive to get Plugin Prius) but discovered if I leave at 6am there's no need, because there's no backup.... no advantage to use the carpool lane.
     
    austingreen likes this.
  20. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,527
    4,057
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A



    I don't know where EV mode kicks out for you, but my guess is its above 40%. The only time I see the battery go very low on the indicator is highway + airconditioning or up hills + airconditioning. It should be hard to park a prius at that point, unless you slam on the brakes to stop without regen.

    It won't hurt the battery if it just sits at 40% for a day or two, but warm weather and sitting or many days of doing this sounds like it caused a lot of problems with the honda. Perhaps bob, or someone that has experimented a lot with SOC, can give better ranges than I.