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Ford : C-Max Hybrid to have better fuel economy than Prius v

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by evnow, Dec 14, 2011.

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  1. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    c-max is smaller overall than prius g3, with smaller wheelbase.... it is substantially taller like an mpv, but it weights 600+ lbs more than g3, dezpite g3 being longer with bigger wheelbase and using nimh. sorry austin, cant quote on ipad...

    so thats pretty bad packaging on their side, with both trunk and weighht... afterall this is very tall car so it should get a lot more space than g3, but with smaller wheelbase ( corolla sized), it should not be 600lbs heavier than g3.

    Prius v is substantially bigger vehicle than this so i dont know how can they even compare the mpg, even if it is just PR. It is like Comparing Focus and Camry and saying that Focus has better mpg.
  2. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I'm not quite sure if you know what smaller means. The c-max has a shorter length, but is wider, and as most CUVs taller. All of the interior dimensions are bigger than the gen III prius. I included evnows link, but you can follow the others. I'm not quite sure why you are so fixated on nimh, they are heavier and take up more space than lithium.

    ev-now was disappointed with the seat up cargo volume in the energi, and he is part of the market. Volume with the seat down is much larger in the c-max energi than the prius.



    Its a c-max, which means its based on the focus c-platform. The wheel base is shorter and wider, with a more euro tuned suspension. With better power to weight ratio, acceleration should be better. Do you mean that you don't like small CUVs? That can be your preference, I don't love them, but it is more CUV like than the prius v. If your criticm is it weighs more than a prius, well yes, the prius does a number of things to bring the weight down.



    Both are claiming to be hybrid cuvs. The prius v has less passenger volume than the c-max. With back seat up, the prius v's cargo area is much larger, but with the back seat folded the c-max gets you half way to the prius v. It all depends on what you want, or need. These things will compete, just as fusion competes with camry. The fusion is heavier btw, and it uses nimh, wouldn't that according to you make it the same weight as the camry hybrid:D
  3. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    I think the competition is great. So far the electric Focus looks great. I'd choose it over the Leaf on looks alone!
    1 person likes this.
  4. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster HID Guru

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    It's a Ford... It will never hold a space in my garage even if it ran on smiles and made unicorns.
  5. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    I used to drag race Mustangs so there is a little corner of my heart reserved for the blue oval. lol
  6. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster HID Guru

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    I'd rather a car that used a smaller engine more efficiently to make more power than a gigantic wasteful Ford motor of twice the displacement.

    I have never seen a Big3 car that "wow"-ed me. The only thing close is the GT40.
  7. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    Basically what I am saying is that C-Max compares to Prius G3 and not Prius v, as Prius v has 50% more cargo space, so those two cars cant compare at all, just like Prius G3 and Prius v cant be compared as same cars.

    So it is slightly more spacious than Prius G3, despite being tall car like MPV, and with about the same trunk unfortunately. Worst part is that they managed to get 600 lbs over Prius G3, which means real world mileage will be nowhere as good. Those extra 50hp will also spend more fuel trying to haul extra 600lbs.

    I wonder if you will actually end up getting more comfortable rear, or is the space function of sitting more upright... because the wheelbase says there is actually less space overall for the passangers. You will just be sitting more upright.


    There is something definitively wrong with these companies and their poor packaging of lion batteries. Toyota manages to put their lion battery between front seats, while Ford loses huge amount of trunk space and still has 600lbs over Prius, despite lion.
  8. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    Competition drives innovation.

    But is this really competition?

    [​IMG]

    I wanted Ford to do better than Toyota so Toyota will have to work harder. But they are not doing things better than Toyota unfortunately.
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Like aluminum hood and hatch. Being an existing ICE model, Ford likely kept steal in those areas to control costs. Being an existing model also put constraints on the design team. All of the other hybrid versions of ICE cars suffer some amount of space loss in the trunk.

    Li-ion is lighter than NimH, but we don't know the kwh size of the pack. It may be larger than the gen3 or Prius v packs. Since it is present in the Focus EV, an active thermal management system may be used in the Energi. With an EV range approaching the Volt, it will surely have a larger pack than the Prius PHV..



    That was at the bottom of the released spec sheet. They are likely correct for the production version, but the recent Sonic came in 500 to 600 pounds lighter than initial reports.



    We are still just talking about rumors here. They still might beat Toyota in fuel economy despite weight. Won't know for sure until the cars are on the lot.

    The 2013 Fusion hybrid is rumored to whoop the Camry with 47/44 city/hwy mpg. Even the ICE will beat the Camry with the 1.6 ecoboost.

    But we have a year to wait to find out if true. These rumors have likely been circulated to give consumers pause before buying the new Toyota hybrids coming out.
  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Certainly the Prius v is just the station waggon version of the G3. Buyers will look at them and decide which they want and will compare them. The C-Max is an obvious competitor to the prius v. They are really similar, but the v is station wagon like, the c-max hybrid gives you a higher seat for a suv like driving position, but car like ride. Not the same, so not directly, but pretty similar. The c-max gives you 54 cubic feet cargo with seats down, the prius v is 67, but are very large. Ford is trying to move the escape hybrid buyers into either the ecoboost escape, or to the new more efficient c-max. Ford has recently decided not to bring the bigger 7 seat c-max from Europe.



    So here you are actually looking at impact, which can breed a good discussion. Extra weight isn't necessarily bad by itself, but affects acceleration, handling, and fuel economy. Its likely that the acceleration and handling is better than the prius v, but this needs to be confirmed by a head to head test, which I'm sure the magazines will do. Ford claims the c-max will have better fuel economy than the prius v - so at least one number will be better than 44city,40 highway,42 combined - but it will be worse than the prius. Another thing that hurts the c-max versus the prius is cd=0.30 and a larger frontal area verus the prius 0.25 and prius v 0.29. The prius being less expensive and using less gas with good interior volume will greatly outsell both of these larger more expensive cars.



    The c-max seats are wider and have more leg room, head room, shoulder room, hip room than either prius. The prius v is wider than the prius lift back, but is still a narrow car. Comfort is a matter of seats though, and until they bring them here. I don't know how materials will change versus the euro version.




    Do you have a source for this. I thought the c-max hybrid had the same cargo volume (no trunk in a liftback) as the ice version with seats up, but loses seat down capacity because of the battery? Does the prius ice have the same folded size (jk, the battery is under the seat here as well). The c-max energi has a higher capacity pack than the prius phv.



    Yes the ice version of the c-max is heavier than a prius v, it would be hard to add motors and a battery and get lighter. The Camry is a much better example of a conversion by toyota.



    The c-max hybrid does not use thermal management, the c-max energi(plug in) does do thermal management and will have a larger pack. Ford has not told us pack size yet, only that charge depletion mode will exceed the 87mpge that toyota estimates for the phv.


    They might be off in the 10s of pounds but they are using an existing car, so the number won't change much.
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    +1.
    Take volume into account, and the're still pretty close ... cubic foot per cubic foot.

    .
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Man, that picture looks bad. Is it the plug-in ?
  13. DeadPhish

    DeadPhish Senior Member

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    From the press release...



    It's an interesting little innovation but, I'd say that ya gotta remember to... "STEP AWAY FROM THE THE VEHICLE" ... or else after kicking nothing under the rear bumber you'll find the liftback coming up and smacking you in the hands knocking all the groceries, infants or Home Depot purchases flying all over the parking lot or driveway.
  14. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Did you mean to post that pic? Its the focus BEV not the c-max. Agree it doesn't really compete at all with prius.

    It will compete with the leaf. Nissan is going all in with BEVs, while Ford is going on the learning curve, trying to get some in the market without losing too much money, but in the space if bevs take off and nissan is right. Toyota has since decided to go the ford strategy, but in a different segment, and is using tesla to retrofit the rav4 to bev. Ford will lose less money than nissan if its sales projections are correct, but if nissan's projections are correct ford may be able to quickly (1-2 years) put out bevs.

    Advantage Leaf
    Less expensive
    Less weight lower center of gravity
    more cargo room
    built from ground up as bev

    Advantage Focus
    Better looking (although that is the eye of beholder, and some people want an ugly car to show how environmental they are:D)
    Faster Charging
    More efficient (although range may be the same and ford has not disclosed mpge other than it is over 100).

    Focus EV also competes partly with the volt, although the c-max energi is a more direct competitor.
  15. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    Whah, hmmmmm???

    C-Max hybrid 408 lb heavier than Pri v and it's going to get better fuel economy? Yeah, sure. HaHa. :D

    Who wants the mechanical looking shifter and analog speedo gage?? Show of hands ?
  16. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    Gotta be the energi plug-in. Wow that blows the load floor. So, who would chose this over the PiP? I'm confusted. :D
  17. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    photo says its the focus.. See my post above. Pip gets very little pure electric miles so no they do not compete. The focus BEV may get people into show rooms to buy to c-max and ice focus.
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I think austingreen had it right, the photo is of the the Focus EV, which is a hatchback. It's hard to tell from the perspective, but there might be more slant to the rear window. I also don't think a mini-minivan would have solid rear shelf.

    [​IMG]
    This a C-Max with the optional third row seats down. The battery likely will be in the seats' place.
  19. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I'm sure it opens slow, you do remember to not move your head to the prius liftback and hit yourself:D I'm sure those complaining about only one door smart key on the prius will love this feature, for me its a big so what.


    The prius is over a thousand pounds more than a lotus elise, but seems to get more than double its combined mileage. If you don't believe Ford, you should wait for the official sticker. And don't believe every picture you see posted. I doubt the c-max will beat the prius v by much, it may only be in highway mileage. The hybrid drivetrain was built specifically for this vehicle, and that should give it an advantage over the v. The body is an existing design, so is hampered by the extra weight of this design, versus the prius v which is built to be a light inexpensive hybrid.

    The prius c is much lighter, less expensive, and gets better mileage. That is not how everybody chooses cars. Some may want mini vans, cross overs, or small suvs. I hope that some of these folks will choose the prius v or c-max as they get much better mileage. These are cars/trucks like the escape, cr-v,, and equinox, with the audi and vw waggons thrown in for good measure. The c-max looks like it has better handling, acceleration, passenger room to move these sales. The prius v has, well the prius engineering and more cargo space. Lets wait a year and see if they can expand the hybrid space instead of simply looking at a single measure.

    The c-max energi also is unique in giving blended phev in a larger vehicle. It does sacrifice some cargo space for the larger battery. It will be interesting to see the phev split between the very different c-max, prius phv, and volt.
  20. PriQ

    PriQ CT+iQ

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    This is, however, bad news for the Yaris. If the packaging in the larger competing cars (Focus is a class larger) is this bad, then Toyota could pull the same stunt on the Yaris and call it a day :(
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