Ford : C-Max Hybrid to have better fuel economy than Prius v

If they did you would just call them copycats.

They are trying to carve their own niche and frankly, if the cars are good, they will be very successful because people (in general...obviously not us) think the Prius looks absolutely silly.

Soon they will have a Camry sized sedan that looks like an Astin Martin and a nice, smallish CUV that looks like a chubby fiesta mixed with an SUV. Both will be far more appealing than a Prius clone.

Also, a Focus is not going to have the cd of the Prius and would probably never match it. Why bother going through all that trouble for a car that will cost as much (most likely more) than a Prius and not outperform it?

Instead they are going to go the route of a several thousands cheaper alternative that gets you really good gas mileage.

Remember, most people aren't coming from a Prius they are coming from an SUV or other large car, getting 35mpg is a dream. Getting that for under 20k is a dream where you might want to change the sheets when you wake up.

 

I love competition. Prius has had the market cornered, and has only made incremental improvements to the car as it has went along. I hope the ford does get better mpg than the prius. It will not only give us a great alternative to the prius, it will force toyota to keep improving their hybrids. And everybody benefits from reduced oil consumption.

 

So Prius improvements stay the same? Not likely. It is still a catch-up game for ALL car mfgs...sales, efficiency, low emissions, RELIABILITY, known name in the hybrid game...the list is quite long that toyota leads. More choices are wonderful. Toyota has that too, FOUR different Prius to choose: little, mid-size, bigger, and plug-in. I would think that means something.

 

2nd gen prius gets 50 mpg. 3rd gen prius gets 50mpg. 2013 fusion hybrid gets 47mpg and doesn't look like a jelly bean, ditches the pencil thin tires, and has an interior that isn't made entirely of hard plastic. Toyota has 4 hybrids that are all just 4 different sizes of the same car. Toyotas overall reliability has dropped while Ford's has risen. You may have toyota brand loyalty, but I don't. Bring on the competition.

 

From edmund.com,
2nd Gen Prius:
1.5L hybrid engine, 48 city/45 hwy mpg
3rd Gen Prius:
1.8L hybrid engine, 51 city/48 hwy mpg

 

Your own fuelly results in your signature shows that the epa numbers are often wrong.

 

I also say bring it. GM's ad a few years back stated...may the best car win? something like that. sales will usually tell alot. customers choose what they like. and given more choices will show what customers don't want as well. And using EPA is as close to compare one can get given the many driving varibles out there. in the lab...well, most of the variables are kept as constant as possible.

 

Toyota is still top of the list and their reliability has improved year over year for the past 3 or so.


And Ford has the oh-so-clever method of running the electric motor to a higher vehicle speed which allows the car to run on the battery a larger percentage of the very short (11 mi) EPA treadmill tests. Here is a chart basically showing that from Motor Trend.



Basically, since the test is so short that the charge state of the battery has a pretty large impact on the overall gas usage on that 11 mile drive. Since these are non-plug-in vehicles (well, the non Energi models, anyway), that energy has to be made up somewhere at some time. Eventually, the gasoline engine will make up that energy to get the battery at the desired state of charge.

The proof is in the pudding. Here is what Motor Trend observed with the 41/36MPG rated Fusion versus the 33/34MPG rated previous gen Camry.

FUSION HYBRID CAMRY HYBRID
30/45-mph frequent-stop test 24.9 mpg 26.5 mpg
50-mph occasional-stop test 34.4 mpg 34.0 mpg
70-mph highway test 33.1 mpg 34.4 mpg

Read more: 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid vs 2009 Toyota Camry Hybrid - Comparison - Motor Trend

Yeah, the C-max will probably be rated slightly higher on the EPA test, but I think the v is a smarter car from an engineering perspective. It is more focused on light weight and low resistance. Consumer Reports numbers back up that several "too good to be true" Ford products are just that. The Ecoboost F150 is particularly interesting. Same performance, same fuel economy numbers as the F150 with the 5.0L V8 despite supposedly being much better on the EPA testing.

 

Re: the previous gen HyCam and the current gen (for now) FFH, CR gave them both the same overall mileage at Most fuel-efficient cars, despite the significantly higher EPA numbers of the FFH.

 

This is all well and good, but we are talking about 2012 ford fuel economy, not 2010. 3rd gen prius has a bigger engine and is a heavier vehicle, but it does better than 2nd gen...

 

If Ford had a 50 mpg Focus, I'd call it my car right now vs. the Prius. I'm a Buy American as much as I can.

Ford has chosen not to compete in the hybrid market. Right now it's a Fusion vs. Camry, Highlander, Prius (3 models).

The Energi (sounds Russian) will compete (poorly) with the smallest market share Prius V.

Where's the beef?

 

^ The "Energi" models are plug in's, the V is not.

 

And what the heck is your constant beef with the V? Give it a rest!

 

Talk to the Ford. They focused on the Prius V as the competition for their C-Max.

The Prius V is smallest segment of the Prius/Hybrid market for Toyota, just 5,000 sold in 2011 out of 28,000 total for all Prius models.

If Ford were serious about hybrids, they would aim at the highest volume part of the market, the 50 mpg Prius.

A hybrid Focus that had been in production for the last three years would likely be competitive with the high volume portion of the Prius market. Ford either could not do it or chose not to do it, result is the same. Uncompetitive in hybrid market.

 

I was just using it to illustrate a point. I think we'll see a similar scenario play out with the new Fusion hybrid and the '12 Camry hybrid as well as the C-max and the v. Ford's parallel hybrid runs a higher vehicle speed on the electric motor and that works to their benefit in the EPA test where the real world numbers are much closer than the EPA delta.

In all fairness, the 2nd gen Prius was released in 2003 when HSD was in its infancy. The 3rd gen Prius was 2009, so there was quite a lot of gain to be made even using a larger engine on a heavier car. I don't think a 2010 to 2012 timeframe would see the same jump, particularly when you consider that the parallel hybrid is likely in diminishing returns as far as technology advances go. Simply different points on the curve.

 

Proximal, where are you getting your numbers from? Toyota sold 136,463 Prii in the U.S. in 2011, 8399 V's. According to April Dashboard, V sales, year to date 15,495, C sales 8881, 59,084 liftgates. V seems to be holding it's own since its the most expensive of the non plug in Prii!

 

They also only got 44 combined in the Prius, and even somehow managed 32 mpg city with it. I've done better in the gen2 without trying.

CR's and other real world testing simply has too many variables.

Tony didn't have any problems exceeding EPA in his wife's Fusion.
http://priuschat.com/forums/ford-hybrids/98247-tony-gets-drive-fusion-hybrid.html

Every car model, hybrid or not, is different. Want the best economy? Learn to drive the model for that.

What performance were they looking at. The ecoboost equals or exceeds to 6.xL V8 in towing and hauling while getting superior economy. It takes willpower, but the secret to getting good mileage with a turbo is to keep it out of boost.

CR's truck reviews are probably fine for people that don't actually need a truck, but I don't think they get what truck people are looking for.

 

Ratios are the same. Why is Ford aiming at competing for 8,000 sales market vs. 125,000 market? Ford is the one who targets the Prius V as the competition.

Having dropped out of the Highlander/RX450h hybrid SUV market, never entering the main Prius market, Ford does not seem to be serious (or capable) in the hybrid market.

To have a 60 mpg Focus to compete with the Prius in 2015, Ford would have had to be competitive today with the 50 mpg Prius, would have had to have Focus hybrids at 50 mpg. There is no indication Ford ever plans to compete.

 

The upcoming fusion hybrid, fusion plug in hybrid, c max hybrid and c max plug in hybrid are not competition?

 

CR has a standard set of tests they run. 0-30, 0-60, 45-65, 1/4 mi, times when carrying a certain load*, etc. Then they run a city, highway, and 150 mi trip fuel economy test. It was all pretty much spot on with the 5.0L. They didn't buy and compare a 6.2L, so I have no idea how it would have fared on the tests. Anyway, CR's site lets subscribers compare directly side by side any vehicle they've bought and tested. My anecdotal evidence from all my coworkers that drive half-ton trucks is that they typically see around 17mpg in their ~350hp, 5500lb, 4WD trucks despite window stickers in 19~21mpg range.

* 0-60 w/ a 7500 lbs trailer.

Not sure what to make of the slam to CR at the end. They do a standard battery of tests and get an apples to apples comparison in those tests. "Real" truck drivers care about acceleration while towing (which CR tests) and fuel economy in different driving conditions. Don't like the message so you discredit the source? My simple point is that there are tricks to improve your EPA numbers that don't necessarily translate to the real world. I use CR as an additional source.