Fuel cell as emergency charger for PHeV?

"What if" is not an argument. What if there were a baseball-size nuclear generator capable of putting out 100 kW for 25 years and it only cost $1,000 and was completely safe?

Your "what if" concerning the Leaf is not quite so far-fetched, but is probably just as unlikely. Basically, you are describing a Volt with a completely removable ICE subsystem.

The practical problems are myriad. Who's responsible for maintenance of a shared generator? What if someone else is using it when you want to? Do you trust a generator (with all the complexities of an ICE) that someone else is supposed to maintain but might be too cheap to do so? Where does it go? In the cargo area within the cabin? Really? But if not, then the space where it does go is far less useful when it's not in. Do you take the unneeded batteries out for road trips? Talk about complicated! What you're talking about is as impractical as a car with switchable engines, and no OEM is ever going to build that for the public.

Now you have a Volt. My bias is no secret: You're carrying around the dead weight and service-requiring complexity of an ICE when you don't need it, and for road trips, you're carrying around the dead weight of the batteries

I have repeated often that I think such a car is a good match for a very small segment of the population. (Again, this is just my opinion.)

Instead of carrying around several hundred pounds of complicated gas generator in my Tesla "for emergencies," (or for bad planning, since I know my range???) I carry a cell phone for emergencies. It weighs a few ounces, and the odds are ten thousand to one against my ever having to use it because I ran out of juice. More likely is that I'll need it because the car breaks down or gets stuck, and a generator would have done me no good at all. (Again, I have an EV precisely because I don't like gas engines! It would cost me less just to have the Prius and always drive it.)

What the "emergency" generator would actually do is allow me to make road trips at lower efficiency than my Prius. And what the Volt can do is make road trips at lower efficiency than a Prius, while being an EV for trips under 35 miles.

While range-extending trailers exist (and are impractical, dirty, and inefficient) they make less sense than using a car appropriate for the use. Rent a car if the need is seldom, buy a different car if the need is frequent. The notion that any OEM will build a car with a removable, sharable generator is laughable. And the hope of an reliable aftermarket conversion is more so.

If that's your niche, the Volt is your car, and better REEVs will perhaps come along. But removable ain't gonna happen.

Your laudable wish to not be a freeloader would be solved by pay-as-you-go charging stations. They could be coin-operated, credit-card operated, or subscription based. I believe there actually are such stations in existence. It could even be built into the parking fee in a lot where every space has access to a charger.

 

If you want removable power extensions.. then there is
look at "Better place", which is really a nice solution. Stop in swappable batteries. I think for a BEV, that is the right solution but getting companies to agree on a standard is tough since their long-term warranties/image matters so where they want to but the batteries and their weight matters to them. But maybe a trunk storable and swappable range extending battery might be something for which their could be a standard. since all they really need is a standard voltage and connector in the rear of the car. (In fact that would all any "range extender" to be plugged in. Its not going to happen any time soon, but its more practical than an ICE or FC range extender.

 

I haven't heard anything about Better Place for a year, and when I looked at their web site I didn't see any news items after about last February. Fast charging is moving right along, but BP seems to have stalled. Battery swapping is a tremendously complicated and capital-intensive proposition: To serve all the customers without knowing in advance how many will show up, you'd have to keep 3 or 4 times as many battery packs on hand as the number of cars on the road, and the swapping stations cost millions, compared to thousands for fast-charge stations. And standardization is a big problem, as well as the fact that you would not own your battery pack and would have no control over its quality or maintenance. You could get stuck with a dud at any time and if BP went bankrupt the creditors could take your battery, since they'd own it. The only way that would work for the customer is if you leased the whole car, and while some people lease, others don't like the added cost, so the market is cut in half right there. It's a very poorly though out idea.

 

sorry got confused with "plug-in EV" in OP. As others stated it makes no sense in Prius, you already have the ICE to do the job.

In EV like Leaf or i-MiEV it would make sense, more so in i-MiEV as it is lighter. i-MiEV would be the best candidate for fuel cell conversion, 5kW = 6.75hp, you need 7.25hp to sustain 50MPH. In city cycle fuel cell would generate enough to get it completely unplugged. On highway i-MiEV has 62mi range, and 1hr charging would give your another 30% upping range to 80mi+.

 

Don't those questions also apply to full car rentals?

How many Long Ranger trailers were produced and sold? I'm guessing not many, and that the commercial model wasn't far removed from the prototype.

Going from memory, the Long Ranger used a 500cc motorcycle engine for the genset. In addition to the generator, it had additional emissions controls and an advance steering system to make it easy for novice trailer towers.

It has been over a decade since the Long Ranger debut, and technological advances have been made. Take the Audi A1 E-tron. It's a plug in series hybrid with a 254cc rotary engine. With a full 3 gallon tank, the genset can provide another 125 miles of range.

40mpg isn't Prius great, but it is better than most other vehicles on the road. Better than what an EV owner would likely end up renting for a road trip. A modern piston ICE would likely do better than the rotary, but the rotary has an advantage in size and weight. The A1 E-tron, with genset and batteries for 30 mile EV range, has the same passenger and cargo space has its standard sibling.

The LR trailer used bulky car emission controls to clean the exhaust up to the tightest standards. Motorcycle emission controls have improved since then. They are still comparably bad, but we don't have to worry about having a catalytic converter being too while sitting next to someone's leg for this application. Prius clean would be a goal, but is area for compromise, like the rotary's fuel efficiency, for this proposal to be feasible.

You have likely have a hitch haul, a flat platform, around 20 by 60 inches, that attaches into a receiver hitch to carry some more stuff. With access to a light weight, high power output engine like a rotary and improved emission controls, an add on range extender that fits on a hitch haul might be possible. The LR's foot print may not be much larger. If so, you have eliminated many of the trailer's disadvantages. Users won't need to know how to steer a trailer, or need an advanced steering system. No longer need a double parking space. With the range extender nestled up in the rear low pressure zone, there isn't an aero penalty. With a proper cover design, it might improve highway aerodynamics.

The question is weight. With 2in, class III, hitch, the hitch haul is rated for 500lbs. However, most EV are likely only rated for a class II hitch (if any) which drops the weight rating down to 300lbs. Even if the unit can be kept under this weight, there still might be some undesirable butt dragging in the EV's suspension. While it'll add rolling resistance (and increased toll fees), a set of wheels to support the unit's weight and level out the EV's ride might be needed. For a plus, built on wheels will make it possible to disengage the range extender at the final destination.

Controlling the range extender is straight forward. A remote with a fuel gauge is the KISS solution. Then you can get fancy with bluetooth enabled nav units, a plug in transmitter in the OBD socket for automatic activation at a set SOC, or even using the telemetric system on the car. The real hurdle is a standard on getting the juice from the extender to the EV for it available to the public at large as a rental. If a person needs it more than a few times a year, then a pure EV probably isn't the right fit for them.

 

...just throwing this LINK out there, from an earlier thread. AAA gearing up to provide emergency EV power...do not know how they generate the power, but if its portable, there's one "solution". Article references EU approach (roving charger vehciles?).

Range Anxiety Reducer: AAA Unveils Mobile EV Charging Trucks - Yahoo! Autos

 

No, because when you rent a car you are not putting a component of unknown quality into your own car. If you rent from a reputable car rental company and the car breaks down, you call them, and you are justified in leaving the broken-down car for them and finding some way to continue on your trip.

But if you have a leased battery pack in your own car, and it goes dead, you do not want to abandon your car.

If Better Place goes bankrupt, the creditors take the batteries (which they own) and you are left with a worthless car, since the batteries are proprietary. If the rental car company goes bankrupt, you turn the car back in just as you would anyway, and pay for the days you used it, just as you would anyway.

If you only leased the BP car, you're probably okay. But most people don't lease cars, so if the cars are to be leased only, then BP has just lost the larger part of its potential market.

Nissan originally talked about leasing the batteries for the Leaf, but the idea was so unpopular that they chucked it. People don't want to lease their EV battery pack. So either BP has a tiny percentage of the market, or people have to accept that they pay to "own" the pack, but every time they swap, they're getting a pack of unknown condition.

It's a poorly thought out business model. BP makes an analogy with cell phones, where you buy the phone and pay for the service. But they're asking people not only to pay for a service, but to surrender a critical component of their car in return for another that might have been abused by a previous user. And in fact, who's going to take good care of a battery pack that they'll only have until the next swap???

Finally, if you say that with BP you don't need to worry about battery longevity because they'll always swap out another, I answer that as BP's battery inventory ages, you're subject to the same issues, and if BP promises to replace batteries regularly, then you know you'll be paying for that in the contract fees. Only, they need far more packs than cars (so as to always have packs available for swapping in a market where there's no way to know exactly how many people will need swaps, so eiher they have more packs than necessary, or else there will be days you stop in for a fresh pack, and there is not one available, and you are stuck).

So, since they need to maintain extra packs, the cost of buying, replacing, and maintaining those will come out of your pocket in the contract fees.

So it's not only a bad investment, but it's an overpriced product, when the alternative is much cheaper fast charging, on a network that is coming on line much more quickly than swap stations.

I'll go so far as to say that BP is a scam to lure investment money into a scheme that cannot be a commercial success.

 

You know you can get a 5-7kW high efficiency diesel generator and use it as emergency charger? Put it in the back and get pipe through the window, and drive while charging.

From what I understand you can use heating oil in it and forgo road tax added to diesel at the pump. It wouldn't be illegal since generator isn't part of the car.

http://www.amazon.com/DG4LE-Powered-Portable-Generator-Electric/dp/B002VWL23Y

 

Too much money with current tech, kind of like asking what a miniature nuclear power plant in the trunk would do and how it would help range :0

 

Better place launched their first cars today..
Here is an article
Better Place delivers first electric cars in Israel — Cleantech News and Analysis
Here's a video:

 

+1
With a simple ICE gen/inverter set, you have a tri-fuel option . . . . Gasoline, Propane, or CNG. No need to go overboard any more than 3 fuels, is there?

 

Pollutes 5 times more than a Prius? Our 6,500 watt Honda Generator/Inverter is CARB compliant. Plus, it can run on Propane and or CNG.

 

Thanks for the info! I had heard nothing from them for such a long time. I personally think their business plan is not sustainable, but I hope they succeed. Anything that replaces gas with electricity is a good thing.

 

daniel; i am shocked that you feel this way. what BP is offering is actually MUCH cheaper than continuing to support gas.

did you know that (mind you, these are all estimates) that for a 20 day national gas bill, we could install the infrastructure to support 80% of the US population (this would be the swap stations) starting in the largest 100 population centers and working out from there?

add another weeks worth and we could supply enough modules to support 1 Million EVs?

add another months worth and we could support 100 Million more EVs?

ya, i know that math seems a bit out of whack but actually it is not. it costs more to insure each swap station can fill the needs of EV'ers in the local area, but after each station is stocked it only takes relatively few more modules to stock several more EVs since swap stations would only still supply an estimated 20-30% of the total charging needs.


so now we have 100 Million EV'ers out there on the BP system and guess what?? we still have another 30 Billion in potential gas receipts before the end of the first quarter.

best part of this, more than 25% of the initial investment is done (now we still have to finish with the broad expanses of the largely unpopulated West and that will take more money and probably 3 years so its kinda like the current EV rollout, we get the big cities first and the rest come in eventually)

granted the actual cost of the BP system is only part of the equation. we still need money to improve the grid and provide better ways of moving power from one part of the country to another and all that, but it is money we are going to have to spend and it does sound like a great way to generate jobs

 

Dave: I consider that BP's plan is economically unsustainable because of the cost of building swap stations and stocking them with a sufficient number of battery packs to reliably serve a variable number of daily customers; compared to the cost of installing fast-charge stations.

I agree that swap-based EVs would be better for the nation than gas cars. But that's not the choice. The choice is between swap stations and fast-charge stations. Both are expensive, but I don't think swap stations can survive economically. They will have to have far more battery packs in stock than the average daily need, because otherwise you'll get to a station late on a busy day and find yourself stranded.

Then there's the question of who owns the battery: If you own your battery, you don't want to swap it for one that may be in lesser condition. But if BP owns the battery and goes out of business, the creditors can take it away from you and your car becomes worthless. And if you lease the whole car, your market is limited to the relatively small number of people who like to lease a car rather than buy it.

There are just too many flaws in BP's business plan.

You know that I agree with you that electric is better than gas. I just don't think that BP can survive in competition with a system where the battery remains in the car.

 

it is hard to fathom the BP business model because it is so counter to what we know. we buy our cars. we own them 100% we are able to do as we please with them. the thought of leasing the batteries and paying monthly along with a car payment is alien to us right??

ok well lets examine that concept verses what we do now;

today; we buy a car outright or make payments and then pay for gas say $200 a month.

so why would it be different to buy a glider, make payments and lease a battery for a monthly fee based on miles to drive and pay say...$200 a month?

in fact, the cost would be the same. we dont own the battery so no large possibly unexpected charge down the road. we are driving a car that has MUCH lower maintenance costs.

now is that business model gonna work? pay out a massive amount of money to build an infrastructure then collect a monthly service fee based on how much they will access that infrastructure. BP maintains and supplies the entire infrastructure.

well, Verizon is doing the exact same thing and making money hand over fist. and why are they?? they are the most expensive cellular provider in the country but also the largest. so people complain about their bill but they stay with Verizon and Verizon has competition.

now you say, Verizon does not have the same business model...well they actually do. you can buy an i phone 4S 16 GB for $199 it requires a service contract for data at least $30 a month. the i phone retails for $649 so Verizon pays the extra cost (rumour has it they only get about a $50-$100 discount per unit) to stock that phone and sell it but are they selling it??

in fact they are leasing it to you on a 2 year service agreement. you cant use that phone anywhere else in the US so its Verizon or nothing. you may have bought the phone but its use is limited other than selling it on e Bay to another Verizon customer (Verizon LOVES it when you do that!)

but verizon could not have done any of that without first building a 100 Billion dollar network of tower and spending 2 Billion a Quarter to expand and maintain those towers could they?? so you see, the business model is not new at all and it is very sound.

now, Verizon did not start Nationwide (at least not technically) and neither will BP. they will start in the largest cities in the densest population areas first. the NE and Southern CA will be first. it will start out with say 50 swap stations in the LA area and each will cost 1-2 million if retrofitting an existing sight. there are probably more than a few abandoned gas stations in the area. we have about a dozen in my tiny town of Olympia. guessing the LA area has several dozen.

so they start. say 5,000 people at $200 a month. that is a million. BP estimates that only 20-30% of charging will be done remotely. iow, battery swapping would only take care of less than ¼ of total transportation needs. keep in mind BP will also install home charging where possible, public charging etc.


so it will take BP at least 5 years to make it to most population centers but they will eventually get to a point where they will be raking in a TON of money verses maintaining the existing network where most costs will be pretty small compared to the revenue.

now, i may not be able to explain this in all the intricate details that would convince anyone that BP will be successful but BP already has nearly a Billion in private venture capital to spend and this is coming from smart money. so they are seeing something. remember there are hundreds of ideas that sound good but get no backing...

 

People used to say the same about Amazon, all those years in the 90s and 2000s when they weren't turning a profit, it was a business model that would never work, etc. Same for the Wright bros -- no one would sell them a motor to run their damned aeroplane. All it takes is someone with a good idea, a high level of risk tolerance, and some capital, to bring a product to market and see if it gets traction. And we have suffered from really bad ideas that worked just because they were cheap, like having 70 years of widespread leaded gas use in this country in spite of public health fears all along.

15 years ago, hybrid and EV cars were thought to be pointless, since gas was $1/gallon. We don't know what it is going to look like in 15 years from now, whether we have external packs, swappable packs, charging trailers, etc. Probably not better batteries. But I trust that the market will sort out the eventual winners.