I wish them the best of luck, but 1,000 cars isn't a real lofty goal. I read where one of their VP's said that they aren't expecting full production until 2015.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Jun 26 2007, 07:56 AM) [snapback]468252[/snapback]</div>

But I'm glad to see a publicly stated goal for sales (no matter how small) before the end of the decade - which is right around the corner.

I wish GM all the luck in the world. It's nice to see that a lot of engineers are working on the project.

If GM succeeds, despite the EV-1 fiasco, they will have really redeemed themselves and have done a lot for the planet, and energy security.

Go GM!!

I, too wish GM (really their employees) best of luck in reaching their goal. However, there are two or three qualifiers in the following sentences which I copied from the article:

GM's initial goal of selling 1,000 Volts by the end of the decade hinges on developing a reliable, long-lasting battery. If that target is met...

I see 'goal', 'hinges' and 'target'. With so many qualifiers following so close behind each other, combined with GM's record of poor quality and big promises and little follow thru I think this is just a fluff article. Like the bushivites, 'if you say it enough, they'll believe it' propaganda campaigns, this doesn't pass the smell test.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Jun 26 2007, 09:56 AM) [snapback]468252[/snapback]</div>

1K cars is a lofty goal if they are building the fuel-cell version, but I agree, it's not impressive if it is the gasoline version.

On a different topic, could GM make the Volt now with current technology?

I was over at TDIclub and someone mentioned cheap Insights with dead batteries. (They were talking about swapping in a VW TDI engine to get 70 to 80 mpg and saving lots of weight by pulling out the hundreds of pounds of batteries) I pointed out the Insights battery is only 48 lbs and is made up of 120 1.2V, 6.5 Ah D cell NiMH batteries in series. I then looked on zbatteries.com and found you can get a 1.2 V, 10 Ah D cell for $6. So that is $720 to replace the Insight's battery pack. So much for expensive replacement batteries! :lol:

Now the Insight has a 1 KwH pack, the prius has a 2Kwh pack. The Prius will go about 2 miles on the battery. so figure 1 Kwh per mile. So for the volt to go 40 miles you would need 40x the Insight's battery pack or 4800 D cells. That is $28,800 not small change, but that is at the retail level buying one battery at a time. From my days in the automotive industry, the retail customer pays 7x OEM cost so that is only $4100 to GM. Expensive but not everly so, people would still buy it. So cost really isn't the issue for delaying the Volt, it could be done with NiMH batteries.

I think the issue is size and weight. The batteries alone, without connectors would weigh 1775 lb. The size would be big too. I know that D cell aren't ideal for this big of a battery pack, but remember GM sold off the patent to their large NiMH batteries so those are not available. So I think that GM is being straight when they say the battery technology isn't there yet. It was, but its not anymore

Comments?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Jun 26 2007, 09:56 AM) [snapback]468252[/snapback]</div>

They could sell 1000 of these cars in a month, even with current NiMH batteries. That might mean electric-only mode would be limited to something like 5 miles before the generator kicks in, but I am quite sure more than 1000 people would buy even a limited EV-only system like that. Their goal is limited either by gross misunderstanding of the marketplace or by constraints on production.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jun 26 2007, 12:16 PM) [snapback]468318[/snapback]</div>

Yea, since the Rav4-ev batteries are no where near that weight ... and THEY have a 120 mile range, perhaps you want to crunch a few more numbers with that battery weight calculation B)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Volty @ Jun 26 2007, 10:54 AM) [snapback]468249[/snapback]</div>

Volty, if in fact you are NOT malorn, are you a GM dealer as he is? Just wondering. While I'm wondering, do you even own a Prius? Or do you simply like to keep posting ... and posting ... and posting ... and posting GM's hype about that car that GM keeps claiming they'll make some day. But not today. Because the batteries are not ready. Sure, the EV1 had batteries that got the car 100 miles down the road ... as did the Rav4-ev. But a decade later ... with all the improvements in battery chemestry, GM's batteries are still not ready.
Not even for 40 miles. Where'd the other 60 miles go?

The problem with GM's wishful thinking is that they don't have the LION battery yet and GM is depending on some other company to do the R&D to a manufacture that battery. They have six months or less to basically have a working prototype Volt, so they can complete all the necessary testing to have this out in the showrooms by the fall of 2008. The way GM works that would take a major miracle.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jun 26 2007, 01:11 PM) [snapback]468364[/snapback]</div>

I'm going to go down to my local Toyota dealer right now and buy me a plug-in Prius with a 120 mile EV range like the Rav4 EV had.... What??? Toyota says the batteries aren't ready yet??? How can that be? After all, they built the RAV4 EV years ago. Those lying bastards!

Toyota never announced they would. The difference between Toyota and GM is if Toyota announces it will do something, it will.

The only thing GM announces it will do that it actually does are layoffs and executive bonuses.

GM sold the large format NiMH to Chevron. Chevron holds large amounts of GM stock.
WHY THE F*** won't they give GM an exclusive deal to use it? They should flat out lose the patent if they don't let someone use it, why not GM, so they can catch up to Toyota?


BTW, I checked out the volt forum. Volty is likely invested in it, as most posts are just him and "staff". There's essentially no one visiting the forum yet, but I can't blame him for what he's doing here. Who knew 5 years ago that PriusChat would become what it has? Is it that hard to predict that a Volt forum might become popular in 2010? He post's here to spur interest in a perceived future chat site that hinges on the deployment of the Volt. It's actually pretty smart. Wether he eventually sucks over members from Prius Chat remains to be seen. I'd actually predict he/she is a longtime PC member using an alias to position themselves to capitalize on a future niche.

Highly unlikely Malorn is Volty. I don't think Malorn has the foresight and I know he doesn't have the restraint to make posts without engaging in stupid arguments.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Jun 26 2007, 01:27 PM) [snapback]468389[/snapback]</div>

However, GM's statement that battery technology is not ready yet is often held up as an example of GM's duplicitous behavior, as was done by the poster I responded to. If we take the assertion that battery technology is ready today to be true, and that GM's claim to the contrary is simply lies and a grand public relations deception campaign, then Toyotas claim that battery technology is not ready yet must also be lies and deception too. After all, if the battery technology is ready today and has been for a decade, then why would Toyota tell us otherwise? They must be lying, right?

Clarification:
"battery technology is not ready yet"
Means
"battery technology is not ready yet that we are allowed by patent law to use".

Why don't the car makers point out that Chevron is holding the patent they need proceed with EV's TODAY? Why would Toyota fear Chevron? I understand why GM won't point fingers at Chevron, as they share stock. But where are Toyota's balls on the patent issue?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jun 26 2007, 12:07 PM) [snapback]468360[/snapback]</div>

The spec sheet at zbatteries.com list the weight at .37 lb each. 4800 batteries x .37 lb = 1776 lbs. Now the Insight batteries are 6.5 Ah and the battery I found is 10 Ah so you may only need 65% batteries. In that case you would need only 3120 batteries or 1154 lbs. Also keep in mind these are individual D-cell batteries like you have in your flashlight at home. Each one has a metal case. The EV1 and Rav4 EV used large batteries with plastic cases. The Rav4 has 24 12V batteries for a total of 288V and 95 Ah and it weighs 1015 lbs.

AS I SAID, this is not a good use of D-cell batteries, but GM sold their patent for large NiMH batteries to Chevron. As I understand it the patent is for large format NiMH cells and battery packs over a certain size.

I personally believe that this is why you will never see NiMH battery plug-ins until the Chevron patent expires and by then you might as well go with L-ion. Chevron has no interest in furthering battery technology, they have no development in battery technology. They bought the patent from GM to crush the technology! Again, just my opinion, I have no evidence the back up these statements.

Yes the Rav4 EV will go 120 miles on a charge but I believe that is to 0% SOC or close to it. This is very hard on batteries. I don't think the GM or any other OEM will allow a plug-in or on hybrid for that matter to use more than 30% to 50% SOC. So you need 2X the capacity.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood @ Jun 26 2007, 01:02 PM) [snapback]468412[/snapback]</div>

Toyota has no reason to challenge Chevron. They already lead the world in passenger car hybrid technology and sales. Why point fingers? What will it get them, access to technology that should be eclipsed in 3 to 5 years anyway. No, instead they are working on the next generation Prius and L-ion technology.

Toyota is already nervous about passing GM for the #1 spot, they're not going to start pointing fingers at Chevron.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Jun 26 2007, 01:55 PM) [snapback]468408[/snapback]</div>

Wheather Toyota is lying is off topic. But if you Think Lutz, GM's head liar is in fact NOT a liar, than you need to read more. Most recently, during one of his media spotlights he (now) said that GM tried to sell the EV1, and since no one wanted them, poor poor GM had to lease them in stead. He never even acknowledged there was a waiting list of thousands (which I was anxiously waiting on) of prospective lessors, until someone on the inside of GM leaked the waiting list. That's just a snowflake on the tip of the iceberg Marlin. So if you want to write about Toyota's lies, sure, start a thread, & I'll be happy to read it. But don't steal poor Volty's thread. Duplicious is too kind for that huge POS (Lutz, not Volty). Some of my talented friends were laid off from GM (NOT Toyota), so he and his ilk were able to maintain their status quo bonuses.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jun 26 2007, 01:08 PM) [snapback]468362[/snapback]</div>

I think a PHEV uses the battery a lot harder than an EV would, and that a Volt-like PHEV with a RAV4-era NIHM cell with (say) 10 or 20 mile range would likely destroy the battery in a few years.

The reason is that, ideally, you'd run the PHEV pack from full to empty every day. So, in terms of compete charge cycles, a PHEV with a 10 mile pack, driving 10 miles a day, puts at least the same wear-and-tear on the traction battery as a RAV4 running 120 miles a day. So it seems to me that driving your PHEV 10 for 3600 miles a year (10x360) puts as many full charge/discharge cycles on the battery as running your RAV4 42,000 (120x360) miles a year. The Cal Edison test of the RAV4- EV showed some degree of failure in some batteries at 100K, though most were doing OK. But that means we'd be talking two-and-a-half years before a noticeable failure rate began to appear in those NIHM PHEV packs.

At any rate, when I look at websites discussing garden-variety NIHM cells, the most I see anybody willing to claim is on the order of 1000 full discharge cycles. So that'd be about two-and-a-half years of PHEV-style use. If, by contrast, you wanted to protect the battery as the Prius does and keep it in a narrow SOC range, then --- you need a large battery and get a poor energy density tradeoff.

There's a second factor that I believe is true though Daniel shot me down on it before, and that is that the instanteous rate of energy transfer out of the entire PHEV pack has to be as large as out of an EV pack, for a serial hybrid like the Volt. So your 10 mile pack will be asked to put out the same peak wattage as the RAV4 120 mile pack. I know nothing about the engineering of batteries, but I had always been taught that rapid discharge was bad. At the minimum, all the battery sites say rapid charge of NIHM batteries shortens their life, seems plausible that rapid discharge would as well. Think of 60 mph highway driving: where the RAV4 would discharge the batteries in 2 hours, the PHEV-10 Volt-like car would do it in 10 minutes. Not in quite the same leage as tossing a crescent wrench across the terminals of a lead-acid battery, but I'd think that the more rapid discharge ought to lead to faster deterioration.

So I don't think it's a conspiracy. I think it really is that hard to get a long-lasting PHEV battery, particuarly for a true serial hybrid (no ICE assist while driving). I think the technology is only now getting there with the newest generation of lithium ion batteries. It would be nice if someone with the detailed engineering knowledge of this topic could provide some hard information here.

I completely agree with chogan. I couldn't have said it better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Volty @ Jun 26 2007, 10:54 AM) [snapback]468249[/snapback]</div>

If GM's goal is to make a problem free Volt they may only be able to produce 1000 units through 2010. Just imagine 1000 zero defect GM cars! THAT would be newsworthy.

Perhaps GM should send scavengers to the junk yards to buy up all the Prius batteries they can find.