GM introducing plug-in hybrid Saturn Vue in 2009

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This is promising news!

If they can deliver a plug-in SUV with 10 miles range it would be a great start. Our family will within the next few years need a larger car then our Prius to fit 2 adults, 2 large german shepherd and (hopefully) a kid. The prius is simply to small so we need a station wagon of some sort. At this point the Saturn Vue is high on the list (if it's big enough) as our second car. I think it will be able to compete with the "speed rocket" highlander hybrid.

In my mind Toyota is slow introducing new hybrid models. The highlander is not really what I want, and the Prius and the Camry fights in the same arena. Where is the hybrid station wagon or mini van that actually aims at good fuel efficiency instead of power?

I think the rest of the industry is (finally) catching up to Toyota.

 

That's interesting for the battery alone. If they think they're ready for a 10 mile PHEH Vue, then they're technically ready for anything along these lines.

 

This is good news! I've spent my fair share of time being skeptical of the two-mode system but haven't found any good reason not to be happy that this is being built. I'm a little scared of the prospect of a V6 making it under the hood instead of an efficient 4, but the plug might sweeten the deal just enough for those who really need somethig that large.

 

This wouldn't help me much. My 40 mile daily commute would probably balance out to 45 mpg just like the Prius. 10 miles electric, then 30 miles mediocre mileage.

I guess I'll just stick with my new RAV4 EV electric vehicle which is bigger than a VUE and has 100 mile range on one charge. ;-)

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Sep 17 2007, 11:32 AM) [snapback]513748[/snapback]</div>

Show off.

Wayne

 

Wow! A whole ten miles? AHHHH...How I long for an EV-1. Shame Saturn can't grow some real cahoontas and start producing them again. Saturn bragging about a partial all electric vehicle when it produced capable, reliable, emissions free EV-1's w/ a 100 mile range is like EXXON-Mobile saying they are the leader in low gas prices because they dropped the cost per gallon down a dime.

 

Will the new Saturn Hybrids be very maintenance free and extremely reliable? I don't want to see my dealer unless I am buying a new vehicle.
Will the Saturn Vue have a CVT? You would have to drag me kicking and screaming back to a 4-speedless auto trans.
Fuel economy tops my list of performance needs, how will the new Vue do?
Ah yes, to drive in Germany on the Autobaun, how lovely and exciting! Welcome To Pennsylvania, USA Dirtbag! We have stoplights by the millions here and you had better be ready to stop and start at each and every one of them. We have traffic all day and into the night with the slowest person in the lead ( I guess you call him/her the winner?), sure you can drive briskly at night if you dare to dodge deer.
Cut the crap in the press release and give me the details on the new product already.

 

Saturn is redesigning their dealerships, I would like to submit my design ideas; a double-wide trailer out front for the sales staff, a pole building with concrete floor for; yearly oil changes, brakes every 150,000 miles, tires every 50,000 miles, ect. Cars and trucks are made to be driven outdoors, so a showroom would be silly. My Saturn would put customer money into a quality vehicle that is extremely fuel efficent. Leave the fluff for the poser losers.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(VBsportbiker @ Sep 18 2007, 12:25 AM) [snapback]514144[/snapback]</div>

Do you know what EV range is of the plugin Prius that Toyota announced they were road testing? 8 miles!!! What morons they are! Only 8 miles?!?! And to think that they used to produce an all electric RAV4 EV that had a 100 mile range...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clearview22 @ Sep 18 2007, 08:32 AM) [snapback]514228[/snapback]</div>

As far as the transmission is concerned, it's definitely something you won't like.

The current Saturn Vue Green Line uses the BAS (I think it stands for Belt Alternator System or something like that). It still uses a regular automatic transmission with fixed gear ratios. I'm not sure if I got it right, but from what I understand, it's basically a regular car with a really big alternator and battery that assists the gasoline engine to spin up, so the ICE can be turned off when the car is idling. The alternator / motor can't move the drivetrain on its own, so the Green Line cannot move on electric alone like the Prius can-- The moment your foot releases the brake pedal in the Green Line Vue, the gasoline engine starts up to move the car. Basically the only improvement this car has over other regular cars is that the ICE isn't running when the car is idling.

GM is going to adapt their "two-mode" transmission for future Saturn Vues.. Supposedly at low speeds it behaves like the PSD/eCVT we are used to on the Prius, but at high speeds it has a 4-speed fixed gear ratio transmission with clutches so it is basically just a modification of the traditional automatic tranny (with all the accompanying baggage of complexity and potential maintenance and reliability issues).

That's what I understood anyways from what I've read on the subject.. For those of us who have been spoiled by the Hybrid Synergy Drive, if we need a small SUV a Ford Escape Hybrid (they are still using an HSD clone, right?) or a HyHi might suit us better.

 

If every US passenger vehicle had and used a 10 mile PHEV pack, total US household gasoline consumption would drop by 23%. That's my calculation using data from the National Household Travel Survey, 2001, and assumes no opportunity to recharge during the day (ie, it's based on the distribution of total daily miles per vehicle).

I think the small pack sizes occur because manufacturers are paying some due respect to the current cost of the batteries, as well as to the engineering. Last time I looked, the replacement NIMH pack for the RAV4 cost about $18,000.

So there's a value issue there somewhere -- cost/benefit. Battery pack cost per unit is roughly linear in size -- twice the pack capacity costs twice as much. But benefit per unit (gasoline use avoided) is a declining function of size. Average gallons-of-gas-avoided per unit of PHEV battery capacity falls as battery size increases, because it exceeds the daily driving needs of a larger and larger fraction of the population.

For example, on any given day, of US passenger vehicles that are used on that day, only 7% travel 100 miles or more. So a PHEV 100 pack would largely be dead weight, for most people, most days. FWIW, the median is 23 miles - on any given day, of passenger vehicles that are used, half travel over 23 miles, half travel do not.

If every car had a 40 mile pack a la the Volt, 70% of cars driven on any given day would use no gasoline. Which is great but the cost of the battery pack might dampen Volt sales a bit. So, all other things equal, its not clear what pack size would displace the most gasoline miles with electricity. What will people be willing to pay for?

For an EV, it's different, as the pack size sets the daily travel limit. But for a PHEV, a small pack might not be too foolish. Might provide the greatest value to the greatest number, or some such.

I'd be happy to see a reasonably-priced major manufacturer PHEV 10 no matter who produces it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JustLurkin @ Sep 18 2007, 02:04 PM) [snapback]514425[/snapback]</div>

No, low-speed operation is just like high-speed. The only difference is which clutch is engaged... hence "mode"

And since Two-Mode has two small motors instead on one large and one small like HSD, electric drive will differ too. Rather than just MG2 providing all the thrust as is done with Prius, the two motors can/will provide thrust in tandem.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Sep 18 2007, 12:15 PM) [snapback]514318[/snapback]</div>

No, the difference is the Toyotas are REAL. The Toyota "Test-Mule" PEHV's actually ARE on the road ... right now. GM's just blowing more sphincter air on you. Yes, Toyotas are on the road, while GM simply continues to SAY, rather than do. Heck, what'd you expect GM to say about their latest vapor ware / non-real project ... that they'd only have 7 miles? Heck, if you're gona spin, do it right! Make up a story that's BETTER than the #1 company's REAL car. What else CAN they do. Of COURSE they picked a random number higher than the company that's eating their lunch. Next? GM will spin their entire fleet will be PHeV's. You know ... about the time they figure out hydrogen (just {another} ten years).

And don't forget ... Toyota didn't brag, "We're gona do such and such ... some day" as GM does. WHAM. They simply put 'em on the road. The only thing GM does (historicly) without fan fare is take back and crush the last great EV.
So Pah-leeez ... the old, "well they're bad too" thing simply doesn't wash.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Sep 18 2007, 04:44 PM) [snapback]514479[/snapback]</div>

The motors in the two mode are not small, they are 133hp! Remember this system was originally built for buses. The main problem with the system is that its complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Mode_Hybrid

Read about it, its quite interesting.

10 miles is not much range, but the price is the real issue. Is it going to be a $2000 option (which I like) or a $5000 option (which is insane)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Sep 18 2007, 04:44 PM) [snapback]514479[/snapback]</div>

No, the high-speed mode does involve 4 fixed-ratio gears as I stated previously. The low-speed mode does not involve any fixed-ratio-gear shifting. That's why it's called "two-mode." Slow-speed mode (analogous to how the HSD works) vs. 4-speed automatic tranny high-speed mode.

Just pointing that out to answer Clearview22's query on whether or not he will have to live with a 4-speed automatic transmission if he goes Saturn for their PHEV Vue Green Line. The answer, unfortunately, is YES!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JustLurkin @ Sep 18 2007, 10:52 PM) [snapback]514618[/snapback]</div>

He'd never know.