<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Oct 30 2007, 02:47 AM) [snapback]532336[/snapback]</div>

Only ten years late to the party...

Ooh and they will get 20 MPG whoopee!!
Seriously I doubt it's GMs environmental awareness coming through here, it is simply a desire to stop someone selling a truck to buy a 25 MPG Japanese car, instead they hope to lure them to a 20 MPG truck. At least some truck shoppers might buy them.

Pity is GM could have built the system Toyota used but they chose not to, it was a US invention apparently.

Where are Lutz's "hybrids don't make sense" comments from a couple of years ago?

Tony has it right on. They're going to bomb because people who want to buy a hybrid know that Toyota already makes better hybrids. A gain of 3-5 mpg over the non-hybrid version is hardly enough to convince anyone.

Their marketing is already trying to subvert the hybrid image by declaring all hybrids (except, presumably the Tahoe) small and weak. I don't think they're trying to "kill" the hybrid, but I do think they see it only as a marketing gimmick and are completely missing the boat.

Their buyers "will be well-to-do and well-educated opinion leaders who want to demonstrate that they are 'with it' and doing their part without having to abandon the vehicles they need and love."

The first part of that statement describes Prius owners. The second part is BS. No one needs a Tahoe or Yukon.

Harry

I think there's definitely a market for these large hybrid SUVs. There are plenty of folks I know who loathe giving up their big ass rides (because they themselves have big asses, literally).

But as environmental awareness goes mainstream, many of these folks would be willing to shell out a few extra bucks to feel a little less guilty (not to be mistaken for guilt-free) driving a Tahoe to their local grocery store to pick up a case of diet Coke.

BTW, guess what the 2007 World Series MVP (Mike Lowell) receive from Chevrolet?

Ok well think about this, the avarage 4cyl sedan gets 38 to 41 mpg's?
A hybrid driven by an average joe is going to get 40-47 mpg's?

the Cost of a standard 4cyl sedan is going to range from 12k to 22k

the Hybrids start at 21k (but in realtiy) out the door your looking at 25 - 40k.

I did let my folks barrow my Hycam for a trip to charlston SC. it cost them $25 each way. If they would have driven their suv it would have cost $50 each way.

And most of the SUV owners I see fave families of 4-5 kids, so it olny makes sence they drive a bigger vehicle....

i agree that if this is all that gm will bring to the hybrid table then it is nothing but a token gesture. but the need for a fuel efficient full size vehicle still exists.

i still have my 1990 Ford pickup because i still see a need for it (granted have used it exactly 4 times in the past 3 years) and its not even at my house. with the Zenn, we have 3 cars here now with room really for one so the other two including my Prius will be parked on the street.

but to say it allows "gulilt free driving" obviously implies that they want everyday people who have no or little need for a truck to drive them.

We need to be reminded of Prius history now that Two-Mode production has begun. The Original model (1997-2000/1) was not profitable. It's an aspect of the Classic model (2000-2003) that most people often aren't aware of. That upgrade repositioned the technology to a state which could justify mass production. In other words, it was no longer a money loser... and the following HSD model upgrade obviously proved that.

How long it will take GM to achieve the same vital stage is a big question. Lutz has repeatedly stated (his CAFE increase argument) that their current design is way too expensive for the general market. So all we get for now is limited volume rollout. The challenge to overcome that is the next step. How agressively will that be pursued?

I think there is a big market for an "optimized" 6-7 passenger sedan. Something of a "minivan killer" hybrid. Plenty of soccer moms would want one.

I don't think hybrid trucks are such a great idea. The hybrid add-on technology kind of brands the truck as a "sissy truck". IMHO.

Nobody is going to want to brag about the hybrid system on their new truck that they show off at the construction site. Stick with Diesel trucks if you want good mpg.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Winston @ Oct 30 2007, 11:24 AM) [snapback]532457[/snapback]</div>

Winston,
My wife desperately wants a hybrid minivan (Sienna or Odyssey) as her next van.
However, we all know that Prius (HSD) does not do well for short trips (less than 5 miles, around 35-40mpg). And most of my wife's trips are within that range. If you consider the weight of a minivan, that would be around 25-30mpg. No much different from a regular Sienna/Odyssey (averaging 22-24mpg - not so sensitive to short trips). The extra premium and loss of trunk space might actually be small problems in selling them. We will see. Choice is always good for consumers.

Could it be possible the the FE improvement numbers seem skewed since when looking at FE number you are essentially looking at a ratio? For instance, when the EPA updated it's testing methods for FE to account for the hybrid vehicles the Prius suffered a larger drop than most vehicles since FE is essentially a calculation much like a ratio where virtually every vehicle showed a drop of approximately 10%.

I would offer the point that a 3 MPG increase on a large vehicle like a Tahoe or Hummer (from 14/19 MPG to 21/22 MPG) is a 14-33% improvement in mileage and is analogous to a conventional vehicle going from 35/39 MPG to 48/45 MPG by the addition of a hybrid system (which is very close to the mileage numbers one would expect for a Prius sized vehicle with and without the hybrid system).

I applaud all car companies willing to move toward new technologies that will lower our need for petroleum based fuels and from where I sit a 15-30% increase across the board for all vehicles would be a great start.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RinMI @ Oct 30 2007, 11:52 AM) [snapback]532473[/snapback]</div>

Across the board 30% would be great.

But even that start is a problem. Unfortunately, we aren't getting anything in the midsize 4-cylinder category. Where are the plans for Camry-Hybrid and Prius competiting vehicles?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Winston @ Oct 30 2007, 11:24 AM) [snapback]532457[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, imagine being lumped together with those sissy 6000 HP electric-drive locomotives :_>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Oct 30 2007, 12:17 PM) [snapback]532452[/snapback]</div>

I am still puzzled over how they are going to market it. Are they just going to focus on improved fuel economy of 2-mode? I have not seen performance improvement nor lower emission from the 2-mode enabled SUVs in the reviews. They just talk about maintaining about the same towing capability and the vechicle weight.

Well, regardless of the perception of sissy-ness, there is a market for larger capacity transporters. There is a segment of the population that takes the family and the boat for vacations on the lake/river for water skiing and the like. Having an option beyond the present Tahoe/Yukon will keep that segment of the market looking at domestic offerings. The alternative would be to just keep the current Tahoe/Yukon that is in the driveway for a longer time... (or start looking for some other alternative) which isn't in GM's interest. I also agree with the concept that the 2008 Tahoe/Yukon hybrid is the first pass at the technology. 5,800 lbs is waaaay too much mass (too many donuts). Get the number down to 4,800 lbs, and GM could have a very compelling value proposition.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Winston @ Oct 30 2007, 12:24 PM) [snapback]532457[/snapback]</div>

I owned one of those freakishly tall diesel trucks that got 16mpg, a 2000 Dodge Ram 3/4 ton Quad Cab truck that I am glad to have sold before fuel prices really went up. I see contractor trucks on the road hauling nothing but arse everyday, and wonder how they are dealing with rising fuel costs? Unfortunately too many people think inside the box that has been crafted over the years by the auto manufacturers and the oil industry. 20mpg is so 30 years ago, but the mentallity of the guys that buy the "Super Duty" trucks won't allow then to think outside of their safety zone. I thought that being a strong man meant that you didn't care what anyone thought? Pehaps that strength has been lost in American men today.... Que the commercial with the "Super Duty" truck crashing around the fake job site while I fantasize that is me. Give me a break!