Discussion in 'Other Cars' started by malorn, Mar 3, 2006.
Hmmm might be proof that the Apocalypse is near!
Always open to new technology. Sure like the idea of H2o emisssions over hydrocarbons. Will have to wait and see, Some of GM's offerings now are much better than just a few years ago. Sure, GM was pushing alot of junk for year, but things can change. Does anyone remember Japanese cars when they first hit our shores many years ago? I was just a kid, but I recall they were nothing like what they are today!
What about CNG? I was out with the wife shopping (extreme duress) but saw a cpl of taurus's with the small yellow placard with CNG on the trunk lids 3"X3" IN size .... Wouldn't that work in place of gasoline?
The next step ould be Bio-Desiel..
Wind/Solar/Battery for home & transport
Maybe even some fossil-based or fossil-derived home or neighborhood
generation systems, but the point is to get it DISTRIBUTED and an
overall increase in capacity regardless of source fuel. Google
Yeah but Honda's building the FCX concept in 2-3 years...
Doh! Got me!
This would concern me if it were significant. Back 20 years ago we didn't have enough generating capacity to power all the homes that are here today. Did all the homes we have today get built over night and end up with no power? Back 100 years ago we didn't have enough gasoline for all the cars on the road today. Looks like the infrastructure was built on demand. Might we envision that happening with yet another shift in energy demand?
And to really throw a wrench in the argument... making gasoline requires MORE electricity than an EV requirs to drive the same miles. MORE. Replace every gas car on the road with an electric one, and we have extra electricity (assuming everything else stays the same and all the electricity used by the oil industry today is now available for EVs). The oil industry is the single larges consumer of electricity in the US. So there you go! The Prius is already an EV without a plug!
What you say has good shock and sound-bite appeal, but little to do with the situation were in, and the one we'll find ourselves in soon.
Not if you don't want to be. Giving up and using gasoline is easy and dangerous. Finding and using a solution may be hard, but quite far from impossible, and VERY rewarding.
I can only suggest optimism. I refuse to roll over and play dead... and some folks find that very annoying, of course! (this is my way of appologizing if it feels like I'm coming down on you).
This is a GREAT point! NG will be the likely candidate to make H2 for fuel cells. If we burn it directly in an ICE we're so far ahead on cleanliness and efficiency that the mind boggles. There is no reason to take perfectly good NG, accept huge losses in the conversion to H2, and then stuff it into a hugely complicated, expensive FCV!
Burn NG directly, or use it for making electricity for EVs and we're WAY ahead.
I notice that this article mentions infrastructure issues (we gonna have that ironed out in four years?) and cost of H2 and H2 distribution. But I don't see the part where the cost of the vehicle has to be reduced by about 99% before it is cost-comparative with ICE gasoline vehicles. And when that happens, battery EVs should cost about $18 at Walmart.
What is the point of the E85 if everytime I can't find alternate fuel I have to go back to low gas mileage and more pollution?
I had a flex fuel vehicle, always used gas, lots of gas.......
ask someone back east who went thru the last power outage when the "system' failed. Put all the auto's on the electric grid and it'll be down in no time. Sorry. CAFE boost is really our only hope. Oil will be around for decades to come, unfortunatly most of us won't be able to afford it. Natual gas was expensive this winter and will only get more so and coal fired power plants are killing the ozone layer and nuke's are a political foot ball going from end to end and no one will commit to the expense. Then the whole electrical grid is saturated and in need of a total rebuild to get the capacity to feed us now. If your kids are young now they will probably be walking in their mid years because they won't be able to afford energy to drive or heat their home. I'm trying not to be the grim reaper but this is how I see it.
Frank, don't dispair. Those of us who qualify as geezers will soon pass from the scene as will the era of fossil fuels. In fact in the long run the era of fossil fuels will be a tiny blip in the history of earth. The kids will figure out a solution. As long as we are able we will do what we can to help.
We can remember a lot more stuff than they can. Memories are so much clearer than anticipation. That is why the young need to be so brave. Our parents just knew we were going to screw everything up and look at what happened on our watch!
I think they are blowing smoke....
They will not partner with Toyota because toyota is too threatening to them, because they are beating their pants off.
GM can't even build a car you can trust thats the same ole same ole, how could I ever expect them to pull off something cutting edge without totally costing a fortune and being buggy has all get out!
They have to be credible concerning thier basic technology before they can expect to be trusted to built cutting edge.
It is so refreshing to be driving a car that actually works flawlessly without bugs... I have never had that in an amercan car.
They are trying the same trick they always have... trying to be elite and proprietary when they just don't have the substance.
They are still having wet dreams of the good ole days when everybody looked to them as the authority.... no more!
I would rather stick with a company that has the substance and doesn't try to be elite.... it just happened naturally without them trying to force it.
Toyota is willing to share its success!
GM is only bitter and jealous!
By the time GM has something that actually anywhere near works, Toyota will be ahead of them at thier own game..... just like always!
Well, how is it that GM can take the Corolla and screw it up and call it the Prizm.
Did you miss what I wrote above? There's no reason to be sorry. Be happy. And if you worry about putting your EV on the grid, then add PV panels or a wind turbine to your roof and stick it to big oil.
My young child is - and will be for quite some time - transported on bicycle, or with the energy that I generate on my roof. She also enjoys walking. The only doom-and-gloom I see here is from the folks who have decided to just stick with the status quo. What's the harm in pushing for, planning for, and actively choosing a different path?
If you feel that we're using too much electricity in this country... stop driving your gasoline car.
The point is, you can use E85 when available, and still burn regular if it's not. When you can get E85, you can fill up with that and save $0.50 per gal on your fillup (Minnesota80 anyway). An interesting side point, there is an ethanol facility under construction near Fargo that will be powered by biomass, so they can convert the corn starch into ethanol and use the cornstalks to power the plant, the leftover mash is allready being used for animal food.
I agree with Darell regarding CNG, if they want to extract H2 from methane, as big oil hopes, why not save the work and burn the natural gas as is. On the other hand, simple electrolisys (SP?) makes much more sense, like I mentioned earlier this could be decentralized, much like cogeneration of power is today in the areas where it's done.
Straight EV's however I think are fine, but have a limited market (unless of course the power comes from fuel cells). They are great for shord distance commutes but I'm affraid they are not much use in the great plains states where a trip to the corner grocery is 80 miles or more. Also what happens to the EV range in the winter when you need to heat the cabin, or for that matter when you need to use AC?
Reason why people in general won't buy hydrogen fuel-cell cars:
Fuel costs for 1 year (12,000 miles) travel in an H2 vehicle: $1,200
Fuel costs for 1 year (12,000 miles) travel in an electric-vehicle: $336
Who wants to waste a thousand dollars a year on a hugely expensive fuel? It's like choosing to run your vehicle on champagne.
(PS and that's based on the cheapest DOE predictions for the cost of H2 made from natural gas, which frankly can only get more expensive as fossil fuels become rarer. H2 fuel costs likely to be a lot more expensive than the $1,200 estimate above.)
How are you going to generate all that electricity for electric cars? Fossil Fuels? Of course, the likely response to this is how are you going to generate all that electricity to generate hydrogen, right?
Here's my favorite solution... A German company has for the last couple of years been building a testing a tanker ship with a windmill mounted on it. They take it out to into the open ocean where winds are plentiful and strong and sit around generating hydrogen from the sea water using power from the windmill. The ship can move to where the winds are strongest and then when full, it can return to any port to drop off the hydrogen. There's nothing difficult about this, as ships, windmills, and electrolysis are all mature technologies. It's just a matter of putting them all together.
What if we had of fleet of such ships off the east and west coasts of the US? They sail out a hundred miles or so, sit around until their tanks are full, and then return to port. We already receive most of our oil by ship, so we have large energy industries already present at these ports that can distribute the hydrogen.
Ocean winds are a great source of energy, but you can't make pratical use of them with out a storage medium for the energy. Hydrogen would be a great storage medium for that wind engery.
I have to agree with others. I used to think hydrogen was the future but now it just seems like an very expensive technique that gives none of the advantages batteries does. Less power and tange then and EV car? No thanks. It also costs way to much energy to produce hydrogen to make it attractive. Too me it's just a ruse while GM (and others) continue to produce gas guzzler.... "Common' by a SUV we have green cars..." ... "we we almost have green cars"... "and even if we had green cars you couldn't fill'em up... but GO YELLOW!"
I think I'd only be interested in a hydrogen vehicle if it was a plug in hybrid electric-hydrogen vehicle. That way the lack of filling stations wouldn't be a big deal! :lol: I think electric makes the most sense in terms of energy storage. You already have the flexibility of various power sources there, and the ability to have things like solar. There 's still work to be done, however, on battery storage, and until then, gasoline or maybe someday hydrogen will have to fill in.
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