Welcome to PriusChat

We'd love to have you join our community and participate in the conversation! Sign up for FREE today.

Sign Up

Have Batteries, Want PHEV, Need Advice

Discussion in 'Prius PHEV Plug-In Modifications' started by usnavystgc, May 2, 2012.

Social Buttons

  1. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,582
    Likes Received:
    678
    Location:
    Bowling Green, KY
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Most of you probably know my situation but if not here's the basics.

    I went to do a PIS 4KW DIY Install but, only received the batteries. I do not expect to receive any more components (details can be found here http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-phev-plug-in-modifications/105157-plug-in-supply-diy-5.html).

    So I have 76, 3.2V Lithium Iron Phospate Headway batteries sitting in my garage. I would like to put them to use but, since I already paid for a full conversion, I have very little money to spend.

    What's the cheapest way to make use of these batteries? Is it Norm's BMS2 that I see for $449 w/out Canview? Or some other route. Many thoughts have come to my mind but, I just don't have the knowledge to know if they're feasible.

    One thought is to replace the Nimh battery w/ the lithium cells (no PHEV) but, the voltage differences seem to make that a no go. My thoughts are to tie three 3.2V cells (9.6V total) to mimic one 7.2V Nimh cell. I theorized you could place resistors between the output of the three cells to drop the 9.6 to 7.2 and use all the original equipment in the Prius. What are the problems with this approach? Is it doable? Will I gain anything?

    If I choose the other route (BMS2), what add'l equipment will I need? Charger? Contactors?

    I also thought about Peef's conversion and wondered if I could do something similiar????

    I know you are the experts so, I pose this question to you. I hate to see the batteries just sitting there in my garage.

    Thanks in advance for any and all comments/help.
  2. NortTexSalv04Prius

    NortTexSalv04Prius Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    51
    Location:
    Texas
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I have not seen Peef?? is he PC member?
  3. NortTexSalv04Prius

    NortTexSalv04Prius Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    51
    Location:
    Texas
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Otherwise
    You gotta have these
    control boards
    BMS
    Contactors
    Wire Harness
    Charger

    I know this bad news other wise you just have battery's(cells)
    If you can I would contact a local EV chapter and seek out some professional advice...
  4. planetaire

    planetaire Plug in 20 kWh 85 km/h or > 160km range

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    111
    Location:
    France
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    II


    4kWh 76 cells 3.2v

    Do you have headway 16Ah cells ?

    (P.S. I still don't understand why PIS call this a 4kW kit (same for the 6kW, 10kW..).
    This is a 4kWh kit or 22kW.)
  5. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,582
    Likes Received:
    678
    Location:
    Bowling Green, KY
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Four


    Yes, they are Headway 16ah cells
  6. fjpod

    fjpod Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    Messages:
    413
    Likes Received:
    68
    Location:
    New York
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    I'm certainly not an expert, but I'm thinking you might be better off selling the batteries on ebay. But I think Enginer sells a kit without the batteries. Maybe you could contact them?
  7. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,582
    Likes Received:
    678
    Location:
    Bowling Green, KY
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Four
  8. planetaire

    planetaire Plug in 20 kWh 85 km/h or > 160km range

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    111
    Location:
    France
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    II


    The problem is that these cells accept only a max charge current of 80A.
    Your Prius can send 100A.

    So you cannot replace the nimh cells with your headway. Peef used A123 cells and have something like 6kWh.

    You have several solutions:
    1) add cells up to 144 headway cells or
    2) use a solution that limit the max regen amperage.
    Enginer for exemple, because this kit don't have regen on lithium cells.

    I don't think that bms2 can be set to 80A max regen.
    2 people like this.
  9. lopezjm2001

    lopezjm2001 Test guinea pig #9

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,060
    Likes Received:
    370
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I am sure that I have noticed my BMSplus spoof the CCL (current charge limit). I have noticed at times that the original CCL and the spoofed CCL to be different values. I cannot see any reason why Norm could not set the spoofed CCL to have a maximum value of 80 amps. I would email Norm and ask him. Buying another 72 cells is not a good solution financially.

    You would need to install a 100A HRC fuse/fuse holder, two 200A contactors - one on the positive and negative side, 9 or 10 x CellLogs and 9 or 10 x 9pin plug harness for the CellLogs, 1 x BMSplus or BMS2, a hall current sensor bypass, 10mm2 cable, A lot of info can be found on http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-p...0-planing-canview-bms-conversion-lithium.html

    If the above is too overwhelming for you then you may want to consider selling the battery pack on Ebay and maybe just settle for a simple 4kwh Enginer Kit. After I first bought my first Enginer Kit on Ebay from Jack he offered me a full refund which is a better responce than threatening legal action. I have yet to hear of a after factory PHEV kit being sold without having some sort of problem which is what you get when you read these forums. Nobody ever makes a forum post to say that they have installed a PHEV kit and evertything was perfect.
    2 people like this.
  10. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2010
    Messages:
    3,326
    Likes Received:
    1,438
    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    One option is to see if you can complete the transaction with PIS. You want a good kit and to be able to share your positive experience about it with the world. PIS wants to sell kits and have users share positive experiences. I doubt that you will get sued, because that would be your opportunity to counter-sue and get all of your money back, and you are far more likely to be the winner.

    You need BMS2 if you decide to do a complete DIY. You have to have a way to spoof things like SoC and/or the current sensor, depending on how you do it. But it will take you much longer. The nimh battery is managed in 14 groups of 12 1.2V cells. That, unfortunately, is exactly 14 groups of 4.5 of your Headway cells. Plus, that would only use 63 of your cells anyway. I think the easiest solution is the contactor-based one where you leave the traction battery in place.
    2 people like this.
  11. NortTexSalv04Prius

    NortTexSalv04Prius Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    51
    Location:
    Texas
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
  12. lopezjm2001

    lopezjm2001 Test guinea pig #9

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,060
    Likes Received:
    370
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    PIS is the only kit which can enable ICE up to 70MPH in EV mode. I figure that a BMSplus device can be used by physically connecting it between the Hybrid ECU and the ECM on the Canbus and program it to intercept the Ox3C8 frame. As described by pEEF this frame which is sent by the Hybrid ECU to the ECM can be modified to disable Or enable the ICE. The only problem is learning which programs to use to program the BMSplus processors, this is where the challenge lays. I doubt that a device can do this by resending the modified frame after the original frame is sent. The frame has to be intercepted, changed and sent. This is what the BMSplus is programmed to do with the Modified SoC, CCL and DCL frames going from the battery ECU to the Hybrid ECU.

    It is very possible that the ECM assembly (which allows ICE in EV mode up to 70MPH) supplied by PIS is a device similar to a BMSplus.
    1 person likes this.
  13. mrbigh

    mrbigh Prius Absolutum Dominium

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,466
    Likes Received:
    375
    Location:
    N.Babylon, Long Island, NY
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base


    Yes indeed, but the BMS+ manufacturer never wanted to have the liability of such a "modification implementation".
    I do not blame him. To much wide open information with out Copyrights.
  14. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,582
    Likes Received:
    678
    Location:
    Bowling Green, KY
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Four


    I haven't. I took Seilert's and Mr. Bigh's advice and tried to reconcile with PIS. I sent a reconciliation request via email on 5/8. So far, no response.

    Other than that, I'm just waiting to see what will happen and exploring my options. I do appreciate all the responses from you all.
  15. lopezjm2001

    lopezjm2001 Test guinea pig #9

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,060
    Likes Received:
    370
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A


    Yes, liability is exactly it. Worst case is that if it was badly installed or became faulty it would cause the ICE to be shutdown and go electric drive only. Including DTCs.
  16. lopezjm2001

    lopezjm2001 Test guinea pig #9

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,060
    Likes Received:
    370
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A


    Yes, liability is exactly it. Worst case is that if it was badly installed or became faulty it would cause the ICE to be shutdown and go electric drive only. Including DTCs. Extending the existing EV mode speed limit from 25MPH to 70MPH along as a PHEV kit can sustain the energy requirement should not be too hard to achieve.
  17. joel70

    joel70 New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Australia
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Hi,
    i bought a 2004 prius here in Australia from a company that imported a 4kw plug-in system (lead acid batteries) from PIS in the states but never installed it. They included the kit in the sale. I had it installed an eventually it was working fine. After 2 months the charger blew up. I looked for a while but had trouble replacing the charger and am only now getting around to getting it working again. Anyway, I was thinking about buying the batteries you have and a compatible charger to get it going again. I would be interested in buying the batteries if the price was right and they could be sent cost effectively (?) to Adelaide Australia.

    Cheers
  18. lopezjm2001

    lopezjm2001 Test guinea pig #9

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,060
    Likes Received:
    370
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Hi Joel,

    Good to see an Aussie with a PIS kit. You can try EV Assemble, LiFePO4, Electric Bike Conversion Kit, EV Charger, BMS, EV Components, EV Parts, All for EV! to source headway Lifepo4 cells and a Elcon charger for Lifepo4 cells. But it would be best if you sent an email to Robb of PIS asking for his advice. You would have to update the BMS to protect the lifepo4 cells from overcharging or over discharging since the old cells would have been 12v. Sounds like you have an old PIS kit. Probably a good idea to update the electronics.

    You could get 76 x distributed miniBMS modules (HVC:3.8v) and one head-end control board from www.cleanpowerauto.com to protect the headway cells. You could get headway 76 x cells 40152S 15ah -screw tab or 76 x two 10AH cells Headway 38120S -screw tab in parallel. You could get a 240Vdc Elcon charger TCCH-240-05 to charge your 76 headway cells. You could source a PVC battery pack box to house your headway cells from Robb or build one yourself. You can buy the cable, anderson plugs and smaller parts locally from Jaycar.

    EDITED - 78 cells changed to 76
  19. MJFrog

    MJFrog Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2009
    Messages:
    771
    Likes Received:
    244
    Location:
    SE Michigan
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A


    What you said above is fine, except the PIS 4kwh kit uses 76 cells, not 78. Of course, if you want 2 spare cells, then 78 is good. The cells I received through Robb are the 40512S cells.

    [edit]You might also have problems mounting the miniBMS boards on the Headway cells. They appear to be designed for the 'brick' shaped Thundersky, etc. type of cell rather than the Headway cylinder cells. The centralized board they offer might work though...4 slave boards (16 cells each) plus their partial-master.[/edit]
  20. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,796
    Likes Received:
    390
    Location:
    CA
    Your Vehicle Year:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    V
    By using the headway 40152S instead of 40160S, the PIS's 4KW kit is no longer 4KW kit. The 40160S barely makes the kit 4 KW. Using 15ah cells would only yield a little under 3.8KW. Usable capacity will be even less.
    1 person likes this.
Similar Threads: Batteries PHEV
Forum Title Date
Gen II Prius Accessories & Modifications Enginer PHEV kit Rebuilt with quality components and new batteries Jan 9, 2014
Toyota Prius Plug-in Questions about normal Prius & PHEV Prius HV batteries Nov 6, 2011
Toyota Prius Plug-in NIMH versus Lithium batteries in PHEV Feb 4, 2011
Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News Toyota's PHEV and Batteries Oct 24, 2008
Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News OEMtek orders more batteries for PHEV Prius Feb 28, 2008