I think they were behind the curve, and the rapid shift in gas prices just made them further behind the curve. I'm guessing the decision to do this was made two or three years ago. With the thinking being that, within a stable and profitable market segment (gas guzzlers), a relatively more efficient gas guzzler would be a seller. Then the price of gas went up, and in retrospect, they've just make a major investment in a rapidly declining market segment. But their decisionmaking is too cumbersome to allow for rapid change and/or they've already sunk the costs in developing it, so ... they are about to make a major new move in gas guzzlers. I think it's not precisely as stupid as it looks, it's more like the cumulative result of a lot of little stupidities, a long corporate lead time to do anything, and the unexpectedly rapid change in gas prices and buyer preferences. In effect they've just launched a product that might possibly have made sense three years ago. (Not to me, I mean -- guzzler-lite is still guzzler, but in the sense of a product that a fair number of people might want to buy.)

I believe the short answer to be .... yes.

... Brad

Yes, I honestly do believe that they think we are stupid,, I can't get over the auto ads lately in the paper, they are advertising as much as 10 grand off MSRP for the big gas guzzlers, Tahoe, Hummer, Expedition etc.. It just makes me laugh, and in the same ad, advertising high MPG for these cars . So when they start advertising for a hybrid Tahoe and the like, I bet people will be stupid enough to go out and buy one,,

Actually, I don't think they are that stupid, here's why. Some people in this country simply feel they need a larger vehicle to carry their family in. My brother, for example, is one of these, and uses a Dodge conversion van to haul his family, which includes five dependents (not all children, alas). I suggested a top line minivan to him, but he didn't see the small increase in fuel economy to be worth it. Any mercy on these people in the way of fuel consumption is greatly appreciated, I figure. You see, there are some of us, who for whatever reason, refuse flatly to move to something like a Prius. I know why he did this. When my parents used to take us to his parent's home, up in Rhode Island, it was always in the back of Dad's VW Bug. By the time I was 12, whenever I came home from the car show, or the local Chevrolet dealer, I'd invariably drop the passenger van brochure in his lap, as I was quite tired of traveling in the back of that car. We got our van, a '75 Dodge, when I was a high school freshman, and it was so much better to travel in. So if he refuses to put his family in anything that even faintly smells of that experience, I can't blame him.

Just because I fail to see a SUV as a aspirational vehicle, doesn't mean that there aren't still a lot of people who do. If this helps them along, I'm all for it.

Apparently they do it to help meet CAFE requirements without having to sell anything. See
Green Car Congress: Chrysler Prices New Two-Mode Hybrid Full-Size SUVs 15% Below GM

the worst part is they could get to the 20 MPG improvement by making a few inexpensive changes. A few examples
Lighter sheet metals or some added fiberglass panels,
better wheels and tires,
Improve aerodynamic design of heavy vehicles,
a better gear ratio for cruising without a load,
better mechanical parts of the engine such as improved intake and exhaust manifolds,
iridium spark plugs, nice thick ignition wires and better coils,
improved cooling system so that you can use more alluminum inside the engine without the risk of melting to lessen weight
Use Smaller engines with some turbo charging

A good example was I immediately improved on my previous car's gas mileage simply by going from the stock OEM plugs to Platinum plugs by 2 MPG went from 31 MPG to 33 MPG instantly for the life of the car.

I am sorry that you are so mistaken regarding what makes a car get better fuel mileage. The only difference between inexpensive spark plugs and platnium/irridium plugs (besides the price) is that the more expensive ones last longer. They are generally good for 100k miles, the difference you noted on your car was mostly due to having new spark plugs which were gapped correctly. Cooling systems, plug wires, and coils have literally no noticeable effect on mileage.

I know firsthand that the tahoe does use lightened panels among other things to improve fuel economy, including the hood, tailgate, and more.

Do you really think that the intake/fi systems arent pretty much maximized?If they could make a smalll alteration to these items to save fuel, dont you think they would? mpg sells cars as does power, etc.

I own a prius now for reasons that fit MY life, I also own a Hemi powered Durango because i need one, I hate filling the thing up, but I cant pull a boat and load 7 people comfortably into a minivan.

I find the arrogance of some hybrid/prius owners to be the worst thing about owning one of these cars. People assume we all feel that the rest of the world should fit into our neat little idea of how things should be. Fact is that different people have very different needs when it comes to purchacing a car, not everyone can fit their needs into a compact car.

Be glad that you are saving some money and if you are worried about global warming, then be glad about your lack of contribution to that also.

Regarding the hybrid suv's, I think they are a great idea. These will make it better for those who need/want a big vehicle. I hope they continue finding ways to improve fuel economy for all vehicles not just ones that are already efficient....without sacrificing performance so they all run like its 1981 again(if you were there you know what I mean)

The only good thing I can find about these new hybrid SUVs is the design. It looks like they using a standard chevy truck transmission as the main component of their hybris system. That means that it can probably be retrofitted into other older suvs fairly easily.
But, They did not put a lot of effort into the total design. The main problem is the fact that they are using huge displacement engines. They could easily get the same or more power out of a turbo 4.0 liter engine.

Ah, but many of us seem to be.

I love this sentiment.

Prius owners are arrogant because they don't appreciate that:

- I may be driving up fuel costs by consuming 3-4 times more gas, but I need to pull my boat.

- Working class folks may not be able to afford to fill up their cars and drive to work, but I need to pull my boat.

- Rising fuel costs may be driving up staple food prices to the point where some people may not be able to eat, but I need to pull my boat.

- I may be polluting the air we all breath with 10X higher emissions, causing health problems and increased health care costs, but I need to pull my boat.

- American soldiers may be dying by the thousands to secure our access to oil, but I need to pull my boat.

- I may be sending 3-4 times more money to Al Qaeda sympathizers helping fund their global terror campaign, but I need to pull my boat.

- I may be adding 3-4 times more CO2 into the atmosphere, which may help cause the biggest humanitarian disaster ever, triggering a worldwide economic collapse and the end of civilization as we know it, but I need to pull my boat.

Seems to me there is more than enough arrogance to go around in this situation.

As far as I can tell the only purpose of a Hybrid Durango, or a Hybrid Tahoe, is to try and improve a wasteful product just enough that people will go right on wasting. If you want to keep an old truck around to pull your boat once and a while, I can fully understand that. Boats are lots of fun, and the incremental damage from keeping a truck for that purpose is pretty small. Buying a brand new $50k slightly less wasteful vehicle that you will then need to drive all the time despite only "needing" it occasionally makes a lot less sense to me.

Here's a link to an analysis I did in another thread, showing that if you are towing or hauling more than 4-5 people less than 50% of the time you are considerably better off with a Prius and an older truck than you are with one of these new full sized hybrids. Granted their are people out there who actually need to do these things more than 50% of the time, but they are in the vast minority. The fraction of those people who can afford a $40-$52k vehicle that still costs >$100 to fill up is probably even smaller still.
http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-main-forum/48042-saw-hybrid-tahoe-yesterday-8.html#post629885

And before anyone has a chance to play the "but they're safer for my family" card here's the study one more time showing you are 2-3 times safer in a minivan.
http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-main-forum/48623-rip-hummer.html#post636396



Rob

What do you have against boats?

Nothin'

Rob

Detroit seems to be intentionally ignoring the Rocky Mountain Institute's Hypercar. Using carbon fiber body parts (fewer parts, lighter, no welds) the car is stronger and cheaper to produce. It takes less energy to move the vehicle, even though the vehicle is larger both exterior and interior. The body is resistant to impact and scratches (including sledge hammers). It takes less energy to move the whole vehicle than the energy it takes to run the air conditioner in a current ICE vehicle.

I look forward to some sort of hybrid pickup. I have a need for a work vehicle that can be used for 4WD in snow, will pull a modest trailer, and meets our needs to "haul stuff." The current Detroit efforts are putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.

First off you don't know what you are talking about. The thinner metal on the Tahoe has nothing to do with fuel economy it has everything to do with cheaper thinner metal to give you a poor quality truck, otherwise it would be aluminum or fiberglass panels. As far as the intake and exhaust manifolds I would be willing to bet that they were designed for Peak Horse Power with little to no mind of fuel efficiency. The bottom line here is that Chrysler has nothing in the works for fuel efficiency. Lets slap a HYBRID emblem on them and they will fall for it, better yet they wont and the North American public will think all Hybrids are all hype.

another PC member mentioned it before but a hybrid SUV is a definite oxymoron with the emphasis on moron

20mpg is nothing to be proud of...my old 2002 suburban got 18mpg on 87 octane LOL

my fast sports car gets 30mpg LOL

20mpg hybrid suv = epic fail

Morning All, Could not agree with MaxLegroom more. I have a Prius on order with a south of Boston dealer and am #12 as of a week or so ago. Prius is certainly not for everyone. It to me is a commuter car, not a family car. There is no way i could have coached a Little League team, carry kids and equipment to the games, could never take Cub Scouts to events or subject other couples to sitting in my back seat. Relief from the Middle East bandits comes in all flavors, small cars, small hybrids,suv hybrids. Every little bit helps. For me and my wife the Prius seems adequate. Just a comment, this is without a doubt the most pretentious, smug, board i have ever read and or joined. The attitude of many on this board must certainly turn off many possible Prius customers. As you flame me, re read some of the comments on this forum. Many posts range from nasty to pompous.These comments regarding smug and pompous are not intended for everyone on the forum, and to many people i say thank you for the information and thoughts posted here.

I'm thinking that miscrms can make a new graph with a nasty/pompous scale and plot us all in our respective points. I'll meet you in the upper right corner.

Problem is GM finally gave up on making Hummers. It'll be hard for them to implement their "paragon of ignorance" logic ... where they brag on 20% better mileage of land barges, if they keep pulling the plug on their land barges. Hummer: What an irony. The car they began ramping up, even as they began conspiring to take back & crush, their EV1's. GM could have been continuing to improve on its range, size, power, etc ... but not w/ Lutz & Wagoner at the helm. Now, they'e both busy bragging about how "... the 'Volt' is no longer a concept" ... simply because they finally got one set of batteries to run a Malibu, for 40 miles. Er ... didn't the EV1 have a range almost THREE times that far? (shaking head).
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