That article categorizes the Prius as a "small car, similar in size to the Corolla."

That's not correct, is it? Actually, the Prius is classified as a medium size car.

The moral: don't convert existing vehicles to hybrids. Purpose built designs work better and can be tailored to more closely suit the hybrid market.

As for the Insight, I think it could be argued that Honda has *never* fully supported hybrid technology, either from an engineering or marketing standpoint. The car simply was not adequately supported by its manufacturer, and might also be a bit too small to appeal to a broad market (two seat cars are notorious for low production numbers).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 20 2007, 04:06 PM) [snapback]482406[/snapback]</div>

I liked the Insight, but then I used to drive a Honda CRX. The Insight was more a light weight, super small, highly efficient normal car that used a bit of hybrid technology to help it do better. The hybrid technology on the Insight wasn't even close to that of the Prius.

Tom

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rancid13 @ Jul 20 2007, 02:43 PM) [snapback]482386[/snapback]</div>

Sorta depends what news source you use as to what spin you get, i.e.:

Toyota Hybrid Sales Accelerate
Sales of Toyota Prius and Camry hybrids reached record levels in March as the technology has broken out of the "early adopter" niche and gone mainstream...Consumers, however, seem to have spoken with regard to the hybrids Toyota does offer. In 2006, the company accounted for two-thirds of all hybrid sales, and for this year Toyota predicts that its total hybrid sales will top 250,000 units. "Today, Prius outsells Mustang, while the combined sales of Toyota's three hybrid models (Prius, Camry and Highlander) are outselling the entire Volkswagen brand," Carter crowed.

Flint also calls the Prius a small car, whereas I would call it mid-sized. And the fact that expensive Lexus hybrids sell fewer numbers doesn't strike me as "news" so much as "duh."

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 20 2007, 01:06 PM) [snapback]482406[/snapback]</div>

That is true. Everyone keeps comparing the Prius (at least, for pricing's sake) to the Corolla, when in fact they should be comparing it to the more similarly sized (and priced) Camry. I was ranting to my boss this morning that the Prius is not a compact car, so why are they still comparing it to one? It irks me to no end.

DISCLAIMER: I'm just posting the link for the article. I don't necessarily agree with what has been written.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rancid13 @ Jul 20 2007, 04:45 PM) [snapback]482499[/snapback]</div>

.
It allows them to make negative comparisons of price and the dubious ROI (since when has there ever been an article warning consumers about the pay back time of leather seats???). If they compared the Prius to the Camry, then the numbers wouldn't work in their favour.

I think we're discovering that 'hybrid' isn't something that folks want to hide under a conventionally-bodied car.

It's such a smartly-engineered system. Frankly, if it's simply placed underneath most ordinary cars, it makes the rest of the car seem pretty imprudent.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(catgic @ Jul 20 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]482477[/snapback]</div>

catgic ,

I like it, Your statement is _Perfect_ you should be working for Toyota.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 20 2007, 02:06 PM) [snapback]482406[/snapback]</div>

Sorry.

Very provocative if not a baseless assertion.
Honda is, and has always been a company founded and run by engineers, it is in their DNA and very few companies on the global market can display such a humble legacy. As a mobility company, Honda recognizes that automotive hybrid technology alone represents not a single, but one of many possible intermediate steps. Furthermore, being the greenest company that it is, did not happen by accident.

And as usual, if they fail at anything, it is certainly marketing. Not surprising at all since there's nothing in the world that most engineers hate more than marketing.


Cheers;

MSantos

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSantos @ Jul 20 2007, 10:42 PM) [snapback]482612[/snapback]</div>

This kind of talk is exactly why engineers should be left to engineering. Marketing is a huge part of any business and is what the Prius is about in the first place. I don't see how Honda gained much ground in either engineering or marketing with Insight in the end. Producing products knowone wants is not a engineering success .I wouldn't count Honda out of the game just yet though.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Topgas @ Jul 21 2007, 06:19 AM) [snapback]482728[/snapback]</div>

Topgas & catgic:

I absolutely agree.

There's nothing more I would hate than to see lesser competition among auto makers. To me, Toyota and Honda sit at the very pinnacle of automotive excellence and environmental achievement.
As per your remark, I also agree that Honda is definitely not "out of the game", never been, and it just looked that way to the uninformed.
If we follow the news carefully as well as the analyst chatter, their IP portfolio is perhaps the largest of all Japanese automakers in everything that relates mobility. Heck, even microbiology and bio-engineering.

Now, if Honda would only let their homegrown marketing department run a little more of the global show then things would be definitely much improved. Their North American marketing groups have been nothing but a disaster and should be re-educated in the ways of "Soichiro".

On the Toyota side, they should drop out of the resistive and good for nothing "Auto Alliance Group", that GM and the other loser auto makers also belong too. Stop lobbying against higher fuel economy standards on behalf of this Auto Alliance. Drop or reduce the Tundra and other "step-backward" truck advertising and then they would look a little less hypocritical. There's nothing I hate more than to have an excellent automotive platform like the HSD, sharing the marketing podium with the company's "black sheep of environmental performance".

Cheers;

MSantos

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(catgic @ Jul 21 2007, 04:46 AM) [snapback]482713[/snapback]</div>

First, it's IMA = Integrated Motor Assist

Second, don't feed the misconceptions. True you can squeeze out greater efficiency, but that most definitely is not required. There are plenty of Prius owners that JUST DRIVE IT who get efficiency in the mid 40's, which is still a fuel economy benefit.

.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(catgic @ Jul 21 2007, 04:46 AM) [snapback]482713[/snapback]</div>

Alternatives to oil and consuming less are not mutually exclusive. So when we do switch to something else, we don't want to just be guzzling it instead.

So efficiency technology will still be needed anyway.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rancid13 @ Jul 20 2007, 06:45 PM) [snapback]482499[/snapback]</div>

In fact it is smaller than a Camry but the hatch configuration makes it much more useful. In your prior post you mentioned utility in that it can carry a plasma TV. I've had a 43" flatscreen, golf clubs, briefcase, two pizza's and two humans in the car at once. No Camry could do this.

The natural competitor to the Prius is the Jetta TDI in both dimensions and fuel economy, not the Corolla nor the Camry. But if one must compare within the Toyota line then it's the Matrix XR that's closest to the Prius, not the Corolla sedan.

What that report says to me is that Americans are not embracing hybrid technology. The persuasive battle to change American behavior is not being won.

On one hand, you'll definitely have some Americans who "need" their big gas guzzlers either because they are greedy, environmentally insensitive, and/or clearly can absorb the high gas prices. On the other hand, smaller cars just don't fit larger families--who either don't want or can't spend for a smaller car to dedicate only to commuter activity. And there are excellent non-hybrid options out there too. Frankly, the numbers just don't work to pay the hybrid premium over similarly styled gas only versions. Unless gas continues to climb rapidly upward, or one happens to drive an inordinately high amount of miles, when I ran the numbers it would take me 7-8 years just to break even on the incremental hybrid engine markup. That is, if I had purchased a brand new hybrid.

But clearly hybrid cars can have other benefits: Some cities may offer parking or commuter lane bonuses, tax benefits, etc. And one can make a "greener" political statement. Toyota's Prius happens to be the clear favorite among those willing to go with hybrid, and they are winning the business among the finite amount of consumers willing to buy a hybrid. But is Toyota, or other hybrid makers, making headway into persuading people who might not go hybrid to finally make the change? That article is not encouraging.

I don't like the Prius' styling all that much, but I do like that it makes a definite statement, and it stands for a unique identity. When we were able to buy our low mileage used Prius for a trade-in price, then the incremental disadvantage of hybrid was not there for us. So we became persuaded. Ordinarily, used Prius' are not that cheaper compared to the new ones. We just happened to get more lucky.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Topgas @ Jul 21 2007, 08:19 AM) [snapback]482728[/snapback]</div>

This is accurate IMO in that Honda is very much an engineering/production/marketing company in that order while Toyota is a production/marketing/engineering company in that order.

The engineers may have rushed the Insight and HAH to market before understanding all the complexities of what the market wants. Toyota doesn't often lead the market with new engineering ( HSD and the new GR engines excepted ) but it does understand what makes each market tick.

Both are nimble so I too wouldn't count out Honda.

Here is another nuance to hybrid development. It appears that Toyota, Honda, GM and Ford are all working in concert to bring more hybrids to market without cutting each other's throats.

Honda backs away from using the IMA in midsized vehicles ( Toyota's area )
Toyota has not brought any small HSD vehicles to market - yet. ( Honda's area )
Ford and Toyota play nice while working in parallel. potentially conflicting, paths.
Neither of the other three get in the way of GM bringing out it's 2-Mode for heavy vehicles ( GM's area )

This whole year has been about GM, its Volt series hybrid and the new 2-Modes due this Fall. Everyone else has been relatively quiet.

Oh, GM / F / T all announce that diesel usage in NA is not economical in comparison to hybrids. Honda goes another route though...by necessity?

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