Honda to license fuel cell vehicles to individuals in the US

Re: Honda to license fuel cell vehicles to individuals in th

So... what is the purpose?

The technology is clearly not ready for mainstream yet. Ignoring the whole "source of fuel" and "cost of fuel" issue, there are still quite a few holdbacks.

Assuming the stack cost will somehow be worked out, reliability is still a problem. That thin membrane cannot take a beating for the entire lifetime of the vehicle. In fact, the papers I have read state about 40,000 miles is the expectation. So even if they have doubled the reliability recently, it still falls well short of the mark.

Range factor is a huge deterrent too. GM claims they can now get close to 300 miles by using three 10,000 PSI tanks. Where exactly are they going to store those? Sacrificing an entire truck is something most people are not willing to do. And how long does it take to fill all of them?

Weight is an issue to also deal with. The older prototypes added over 2,000 pounds to the vehicle. A reduction of half is still way too much. Components like suspension, brakes, and tires will need to be beefed up to handle the increased load. And naturally, that's going to alter the dynamics of the vehicle... making it feel & handle different, as well as increase cost.

The show-stopper though is cold weather operation. The latest info I can find is the "breakthru" Honda had allowing the stack to operate down to 20F degrees. That is an obvious problem for many of us. Temperatures are much lower than that for days at a time in some places. And in Minnesota, you can actually go for weeks without an evening temperature getting that high. So winter is a clear problem, not even considering how long it takes to actually get heat too.

What about the summer cooling? How much does travel-range shorten when you have the A/C running a lot?

With so many issues still, Honda's plan to put the technology in hands of consumers this soon seems like just a reputation-building effort. Does taking some attention away from hybrids make sense right now?

 

It's partly beta test, and partly PR move.

Fuelling mishaps will be exciting.

 

Re: Honda to license fuel cell vehicles to individuals in th

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a\";p=\"63676)</div>

I had to think about your response for a while.

The first thing that comes to mind is that Honda wants to get an idea as to how they will work in an actual real world environment. There are still alot of people commenting on hybrids in the exact same manner that you just did on the FCX.

Personally, I like it. I'd love to have a truely useful vehicle that could be used for real commuting, yet still not need to buy a single drop of gasoline.

Yes, you are right that they are not yet ready for the mainstream. However, this may be the first baby step into getting them out there, and functional in a real world environment. If Honda could answer the question on where I could get the vehicle refueled, and I could afford to, I'd sign up for one of these. The only downer to it, is that with the shortish range, it still isn't up to the task of a long distance trip. Because of this, I'd still require a regular car for taking vacations, as I seldomn spend them, sitting around the house.

IMO, Honda deserves a thumbs up for this attempt. With as intense as you appear to be regarding the environmental benefits of new automobile technologies, I'm highly surprised at your negative reaction to the vehicle.

 

mmm i dont like the last post.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(flareak\";p=\"63984)</div>

flareak, you might have to be a little more specific if you want any kind of results. :lol:

 

what's the lease rate per month going to be. I suspect the average car buyer won't be able to afford it. My guess is $1150 per month. Plus the lease on the hydrogen refueling station, Plus the cost of the natural gas feed stock, Plus the cost of electricity to convert NG to Hydrogen. I'm thinking total per month $1475 Slap me if I'm wrong but I can't see any normal car buyer/leaser getting into this. Just got a leaflet from the Industrial Trade Show in Chicago and there is a blurb about a Hydrogen fuel stack for forklifts and one of the items on it that caught my eye was MTBF 1000 hrs. We have forklifts in our rental fleet with 25,000 hours on them. At most maybe a valve grind, but not a total failure. They have put a couple into the Fedex distribution warehouse. I'll like to hear the results from that. There is no way the bean counters will fund that sort of equipment. Just not cost effective. Yes I know you have to charge the batteries but you still need electricity and NG feed to produce the hydrogen. I'll be dead before fuel cells are 1/10 of 1% of vehicles on the road, and I'm only 57.

 

Re: Honda to license fuel cell vehicles to individuals in th

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LazyBear\";p=\"63974)</div>

That's a common misconception, which stems from the "assist" hybrids... since they are in fact a dead end.

"Full" hybrids do not have that shortcoming. They can & will become more and more and more dependent on electricity.

The proof of this is rather obvious too. Just look at Toyota's fuel-cell vehicle. It is called FCHV, which stands for "Fuel Cell Hybrid Vehicle". The components within are similar to that in Prius. They both have electric motors, electric steering, electric A/C, a storage device for electricity, and the ability to capture electricity from braking. Further proof of this is the fact there are already at least two prototypes of Prius having been converted to use power from fuel-cells.

Trying to force a specific technology simply doesn't make sense. Prius will naturally become that ultimate solution we wish to achieve. That may or may not be fuel-cells.

The better way of establishing a market presence for fuel-cells is to focus on the micro type first, especially since there is a dramatically larger audience & product-base for that technology... just look at all the portable devices which currently use batteries that could significantly benefit from a fuel-cell. Notebook computers could be used dramatically longer and be instantly "recharging" by simply swapping the empty methanol canister with a full one.

After all, the success of NiMH came about that way... by using it in small, portable devices first.

 

Re: Honda to license fuel cell vehicles to individuals in th

There are reviews of the vehicle available at...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?se...6&page_number=1
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/altern...onda/index.html


This was in the July issue, so it was probably a few months earlier.

As for refueling, I know there is at least one hydrogen refueling station in DC, but I do not know if it will be able to service this particular car. I would imagine Honda will only be selling it in areas where they can partner with people who can fuel the car.

Honda can, and probably will, take a loss on the car, especially since I think they'll have to lease it at a normal price. But it's great that they're trying.

Some interesting tidbits from the article that I think are interesting is the mention that the car uses an ultra-capacitor.

As much as I love my prius, I have to agree with the poster above. Hybrids are just a stopgap. This is the way forward.