Honda will put Hydrogen Fuel Cell car into production in 2008.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Oct 2 2006, 12:27 PM) [snapback]326901[/snapback]</div>

This is an electric car with a fuel cell that replaces batteries? Or does it run off of hydrogen. I was confused by the article, because it talked about it being all electric, but also mentioned the need for water evaporation, which I assume would be a byproduct of hydrogen combustion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Oct 2 2006, 01:00 PM) [snapback]326923[/snapback]</div>

Thanks. When I think "electric car", I think plug-in. So you get a bunch of hydrogen molecules, fill up the fuel cell, and it generates electricity and drips out some water. The battery is probably to recover braking energy etc. Sounds like it should be pretty efficient, other than the part about gathering up a bunch of hydrogen molecules.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Oct 2 2006, 01:17 PM) [snapback]326932[/snapback]</div>

The battery also serves to average out the power demand. Fuel cells work best when delivering a steady amount of current. Otherwise you have to size the fuel cell for the highest power demand.

Tom

 

Wasn't the range of the Honda FC car around 100 miles?

Dang, I don't want to live in a FC station. :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Oct 2 2006, 10:00 AM) [snapback]326923[/snapback]</div>

Every FCV that's ever been put on the road has been a FC/battery hybrid. Most FC proponents fail to mention that the vehicles still rely on traction batteries since full-on battery cars are typically written off as needing battery technology that we don't yet have.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Oct 2 2006, 10:17 AM) [snapback]326932[/snapback]</div>

Good news! You still get to plug in a FCV. Just like the Prius. You have to shove SOMETHING in the tank. Might as well call it plugging in.

This is SUCH a great quote! You are quite right. Very efficient system... right up until the point that you start to count all the energy inputs. Suddently it becomes WAY less efficient than a BEV or a Prius.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qbee42 @ Oct 2 2006, 01:39 PM) [snapback]327109[/snapback]</div>

Which of course would quite simply not fit in a passenger vehicle. And would likely cost several million$ instead of just the one.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Oct 3 2006, 12:26 PM) [snapback]327452[/snapback]</div>

That's "projected" range for this decidedly "concept" vehicle as far as I know. I have yet to hear of a FCV ever actually driving better than 200 miles. No reason why it can't be done, of course. But we haven't yet seen one on the road with that sort of range.

With all this current talk of "sales" starting to crop up, it'll be interesting to see how this goes. The companies that made EVs ten years ago claimed that it cost them $100k to build each car, and they were forced to put a sales price on them of about $40k. A big loss! How will they manage this hurdle when the car they're starting with comes with a build price-tag of $1million?

 

I wonder if I could buy one, rip out the fuel cell, add in a few extra LiIon batteries, and then charge them from the grid?

Then it would be perfect. ;-)

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Oct 3 2006, 04:29 PM) [snapback]327511[/snapback]</div>

Well, the most expensive part of a FCV is the FC. Thats the tricky technology, no Lithium ion batteries.

// Give me the BBQ sandwich - hold the BBQ.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Oct 3 2006, 01:29 PM) [snapback]327511[/snapback]</div>

Why would you want to do that? Wouldn't it be cheaper just buying the electricity from the grid?

Imagine having to pay 4x the amount of electricity to make FC, then to only make it back as electricity.

Hope you are not responsible in managing any of my retiring funds... :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Oct 3 2006, 02:40 PM) [snapback]327460[/snapback]</div>

Anything that results in electricity is still better utilized as electricity, rather than adding conversion to hydrogen.

As for bacteria, the same is true for ethanol. So unless the fuel-cell is *better* than a plug-in hybrid, what's the point?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Oct 3 2006, 03:40 PM) [snapback]327460[/snapback]</div>

The anti-fuel cell folks will certainly also never point out that it takes a lot of power (electricity) to refine transport, refine, and then transport the refined crude.

Fuel cells are just more efficient in that respect.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Oct 3 2006, 05:54 PM) [snapback]327638[/snapback]</div>

Surprise. No they aren't. If you're after efficiency, the Prius wins over any FC design that has been considered. Yes it takes lots of energy to make gasoline... but the main componenent - the oil - is basically a windfall energy at this point. You get that by just digging it up. Add a bit more energy, and you've got gasoline. With H2, you've got to make ALL the energy from scratch, by putting in WAY the hell more than you ever get back out. It isn't the same with gasoline. You still get more energy out than you ever put in. When that scale tips the other way, there will be no more reason to pump oil from the ground. In the case of H2... there already is little reason to do it.

Sort of leaves me wondering where you get your information.

Now if you want to compare either of these to just making electricity to charge batteries, we've got a whole 'nuther ball game. In some cases, a Prius is about on par with a BEV from an efficiency standpoint. And both of them are 3-4 times as efficient as a FCV.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Oct 3 2006, 09:30 PM) [snapback]327652[/snapback]</div>

Surprise... but I spent a number of years working off to the sides in the energy industry. And let me say... "just digging it up'... that's cute. Sad, misguided, but still kinda cute.

Nobody 'just digs up' oil. The Saudis pump something like a million gallons of water from the sea into their oil fields. A day. And that water takes energy to get moved from it's source (which is nowhere near the field), down a massive pipeline, and then injected at a high speed/pressure into the ground.

Then, once you've got your 'oil' up, you have to separate roughly 33% out of it which is the water you just injected.

All of this is even before you begin to consider refining it.
Oil is, no matter how you look at it, inefficient.

Meanwhile, if we had a grid based largely on solar on homes where it made sense and nuclear plants, a FCV would be great.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Oct 3 2006, 07:01 PM) [snapback]327669[/snapback]</div>

I'm not suprised that you worked off to the side there at all. I am suprised that you're not aware that we actually DO get more energy out of oil than we put into it. I guess you missed the part where I was actually trying to be cute? So much for subtlety. I over simplified on purpose, of course. The main point is that oil provides the energy of gasoline, and we do just go out and find that oil. Yes it takes much effort, money, energy and hardship to recover. And still, we get more energy out than we put in. At last count we get about 10 units of energy out for each unit that we put in. Sounds like you were working WAY off to the side of the energy industry there, eh?

Of all people here, you won't find me fighting on the side of oil. Yet we probably shouldn't ignore the reality of it. You may want to pick a fight with somebody else. Somebody maybe with the same loose grasp of the energy content of oil and gasoline? Making gasoline and burning it in a Prius is more efficient than making H2 and sticking it back to O to make electricity to move a FCV. Even the FC proponents concede this! Again - there is more energy in the product of gasoline than the energy that goes into making it. This is not true of H2. And the reason, again, is because of how much "free" energy is in the oil that is pumped from the ground. If gasoline were as inefficient as you vaguely claim, it would take more energy to make it than we get from consuming it. That can't be the case, or we'd never consider making gasoline. Once we get to the point where it takes more energy to make gasoline than we get back out of it, I'm pretty confident that we'll stop using gasoline.

If a FCV is "great" in this situation, then a BEV would be indescribably fantabulous at 4x the efficiency. If we're making electricity in some expensive, green way - or if we make it in a cheap dirty way - we might as well use it wisely. Throwing it away on H2 ain't it. Odd that you seem to want the wrong things for the right reasons....

 

Honda FCX concept - Previews

OK, geek talk aside, did anybody notice the awesome styling of the FCX? I thought the Prius looked cool and modern, but this FCX styling is amazing. If they dropped a decent hybrid powertrain in there, and gave it a nice Prius like video screen, I really would be tempted to trade my Prius in. I can't tell if the FCX is a hatch back or sedan. It would be nice if Honda got out of their sedan rut.

I sure hope that Toyota doesn't blow it with the 2008 Prius styling. They have been getting a little wierd lately. Not sure what they were thinking with that bull-nose Camry. Sienna is looking like a Dodge Intrepid.