The Insight does appear to have been a swing and a miss for Honda, they wanted to be the hybrid for the rest of us, what happened ? (I'd say people are willing to pay more for the real thing)

Honda missed their chance to be the next "Toyota". Now, Volt / GM wants next crack at being "Toyota".

If the volt ever gets built:
1) Will it be in such limited markets (like the original Insight) that it reamains a non-issue?
2) Will it be the next "all hot air" attempt at knocking off #1?

Will Honda scrap out this Insight for a better Prius fighter?

As someone who is about 99% non-biased I have to point out that this thread and the article it is about is completely insane from the getgo because:

No one at Honda ever made any kind of claim that the Insight would be a Prius killer, in fact they knew and told the public that it wouldn't get as good an MPG as good as the Prius from before it was even released and all along it was well known that the Insight would fall short in certain ways because of how it was rushed to the market.

Whoever coined this phrase "Priuskiller" is obviously trying to stir up hype against Honda and is obviously biased.

Hill, Honda is likely to keep using the current Insight platform when it introduces it's new hybrid system.

I'm pretty sure "Prius killer" came from automotive press articles as part of the run up. Though I've not made a study, I'm pretty sure folks here have made fact-based observations about the Honda Insight ... those who have sat in and inspected the vehicle. I didn't get as far as a road test because I hit my head just trying to get in car and it was obviously too small for our family. My prediction was the Honda Insight was more competition for small cars like the Scion/Corolla/Yaris/Focus. It is in that class.

Although I understand the history, I think Honda is making a mistake sticking with the IMA. Without the ability to stop turning the engine and use electric power, such vehicles will have a significant mileage penalty against a similar class vehicle using the Ford/Toyota system. Even the Hyunda hybrid may be better if as I suspect, their motor can provide power without turning the engine.

The reason for this is internal engine drag. Although we often think of the engine as a power source, part of that power has to overcome the internal engine friction. This energy loss is avoided if the engine can come to a complete stop while the car travels down the road. Sad to say, the IMA has no clutch between the IMA and the engine so the motor can provide vehicle power while the engine is not spinning. If they moved the motor to the other side of the clutch, even if it means adding a 12 V starter motor, Honda could see a 'step up' in performance.

Then if Honda will send someone over to measure the average American driver/passenger ...

Bob Wilson

Can't argue with the design flaws, but I'm sure that Honda is going to be just fine in the long run. The current hybrids are going to sell well enough and the new hybrid system is speculated to end up a lot like the Hybrid Synergy Drive system. It might even debut as a plug-in system which of course will spark up all the bashing yet again because what Toyota fans will fail to realize is that Toyota did in fact learn a lot of lessons from Honda's real world R&D (1st generation Insight) and it only seems fair for Honda to reap similar benefits in the future without having to bear the brunt of the growing pains a second time.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


(joking of course, no offense to Bob or anyone else in particular)

I'm not sure i'm following here "Toyota learned from the Insight" Do you know which car was on the market first?

If it appears that way, my apologies. I'm only trying to point out that the best way to avoid paying an 'overhead' energy cost in a hybrid is to spin only what is necessary. In other treads I'd discussed how the IMA provides the low-end torque needed to let a relatively small displacement engine perform like a larger displacement engine. This is good news although it could be better.

The IMA has no clutch between the ICE and the electric motor and though the valves can be opened, in EV mode it still has to spend some energy dragging the pistons up and down as well as the water and oil pump drag. The small IMA motor and electrical system still has this overhead that robs EV range. That is why the Hyundai system (if it ever shows up) with a clutch between the engine and electric motor, should prove fairly efficient and may provide effective competition to the Prius.

IMHO, a single motor hybrid works best if there are two clutches: (1) engine side and (2) transmission side. This allows the motor to contribute only as needed and only where needed and the same is true with the engine:
engine clutch|motor clutch|requirement
on|on|peak power demands
on|on|peak braking demands
off|on|electric vehicle mode, urban speeds
off|on|regenerative braking mode
on|off|highway cruise with 75% charged battery
on|off|descending hills with fully charged batteryFor what it does, the IMA is OK and I could see the single-clutch architecture married to a 'clean' two-stroke motorcycle (direct fuel injection and dry sump) becoming a real street terror. BTW, I had a little 'wicked fun' surprising a loud Harley this weekend. The IMA in the aluminum body, two-seat, Classic Insight worked too. But the user reported mileage numbers for the current Insight and Civic hybrids are ... modest compared to the Prius.

Bob Wilson

If it were a price issue, would the Ford be selling equal to the Honda when it is $10K higher? Admittedly, the Ford is probably selling to die-hard "buy American" types - not to mention press has been pretty kind to the Ford.

I wonder how different the Hybrid market is to the "real" market. There might be enough difference that many hybrid drivers are buying based on research and reviews to a large extent. And if that's right, the articles might have a much bigger effect than they will in the "normal" market. the end result is the unfavorable press on the Honda will have a noticable effect. Also, there are a million Prius on the roads - people might be more influenced by proven technology in this market segment than they would be in standard car segments.

I'm not convinced any of the manufacturers actually understand their current market for hybrids. This will prevent them from exploiting new members who fit the market profile, and from breaking into new markets.

In the UK people don't have a clue, the new Prius advert is great if you have one. I work with over a hundred staff and in the two years I have not been able to get one other person to have a Prius. One has had the Civic but that was "because its an auto". It is very hard to sell the car.

But at least I have a pretty exclusive car and pay virtually no tax.

Gary in the UK, should be getting my III in October.

A second clutch is a little more than a tweak but the FAS performance strongly suggests this is the case. I am expecting the Hyundia system to validate the model.

Bob Wilson

Speaking of FAS, and I know it doesn't seem like much, when I had my HCH I was able to get it to autostop in some situations at about 8 MPH and then roll for quite a long ways.

Also if I understand it right the IMA can shut down the engine, it opens the valves and kills the fuel injectors while the pistons continue to turn. The tachometer continues to produce a value however with the valves being open there is very, very little engine braking. My Scanguage II used to frequently read 9999 even though the tach had a reading.

Just sayin, in case anyone didn't know, so.... a lot of the IMA's economy is based on the drivers ability.

"Honda's Prius-Killer Resembles Road Kill 4 Months After Entering U.S. Market"

Yet, I continue to see Civic hybrids on the road every single day. Honda should have just stuck with the Civic hybrid and aggressively marketed it.

IMHO, Honda should have repackaged the traction battery so it fit behind the rear, driver-side, seat back and then let the other side, fold down. Half of a fold-down seat back is better than none and would give HCH owners a lot more utility.

Bob Wilson

Honda's original Insight was the first hybrid-electric ever sold in the US. 1999 I believe it was.

But, the original was (and still is) a series hybrid (I think aka mild hybrid). Also, Toyota introduced the Prius in Japan in 1997. I don't know when the Insight debuted there.

Hybrid Synergy Drive is all Toyota's - unique, original, not copied from anyone far as I know.

I agree completely. One of my buddies is the local Honda dealer up here in Wausau, WI. After reading about and seeing pictures of the new Insight I had my mind almost made up to purchase one this summer, that is, until I saw one on the Interstate. The car is so small it reminded me of a roller skate, and the fact that the driver was a rather large man didn't help matters any. The view from the rear was somewhat ugly and I was totally put off.

I ordered a Prius a few days later.

BTW, my Honda dealer friend tells me the Insights are not selling very well and that customers who look at it order the Civic hybrid instead.

Buzz

I have to comment to this one....

HCH-II is cheaper because it is a smaller and slower car. It ought to be! In fact it should be better MPG for being smaller and slower.

As for IMA design cheaper to make, by how much? Cost saving in the Insight-II is non-existence no matter how you look at it. It costs nearly as much as the bigger hybrid (Prius). It costs a lot more than a non-hybrid of similar size (Fit).