<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Blue Hoosier @ Oct 8 2007, 08:14 PM) [snapback]522865[/snapback]</div>

when does the volt come out

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SureValla @ Oct 8 2007, 08:16 PM) [snapback]522866[/snapback]</div>

I think they were talking about years, but I'm not sure. I was waiting for the Prius to show up.

If the volt lives up to the hype I'll buy one in a minute. Unfortunately right now it's vaporware. Nobody has ever made an affordable battery for this type of vehicle.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(narf @ Oct 9 2007, 01:09 AM) [snapback]522991[/snapback]</div>

I'll buy one also.

But your statement about affordable battery is demonstrably untrue. Start with the EV-1, from there there are the other EV's (like RAV-4) on the road now.

No, the real issue with the Volt will be GM's commitment to it. Just because it might save their company (look ahead 10 years...) is no reason to believe they'll actually produce it. Sigh.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HeyKB @ Oct 9 2007, 01:00 PM) [snapback]523154[/snapback]</div>

No, you are wrong--it is the battery. The Volt will not be an electric vehicle(EV); it is a Plug-in Electric Vehicle(PHEV), although electric motors will propel the car all the time. The car's engine (multiple fuels) will recharge the batteries when needed. The batteries used in EV1 and the other EVs (2 seaters) are too big and too heavy. When Li-ion (or other similar type) batteries are affordable (smaller and lighter than EV1 style) PHEVs will rule the auto market. Grid electricty will be much cheaper than gas. The Volt and Toyota's PHEV, next gen Prius, will carry 4-5 passengers and have luggage space.

The batteries in the RAV4 EV are not too big or too heavy. You only need about a third, maybe even a quarter, of the RAV4's pack. This puts it at 250-300 pounds.

Now, scale down every thing else, fuel tank, radiator, transmission (gone), exhaust, etc and you've now compensated for it.

Toyota claims the pack costs $26,000. Let's take a third of that, say $9000. Now, add that onto the $15,000 Cobalt platform, add $6,000 for all the other EV components, and you're done.

Of course, for now I'll just keep driving my RAV4 EV with its 100 mile range with no issues after 61,000 miles and 5 years.

Nate

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(narf @ Oct 9 2007, 01:09 AM) [snapback]522991[/snapback]</div>

It's a great idea but as noted above it's still vaporwar primarily as far as the batteries are concerned. The vehicle is probably the easiest part to design and test. The concept of a series hybrid that puts the ICE 'behind' the battery instead of 'in front of' it puts all the pressure to perform on the battery pack.

GM is now testing two competing Li-Ion products.

To me the biggest concern is longevity. The Li-Ion battery pack will be used much harder than the battery pack in the Prius. It's necessarily in action 100% of the time. So can the Li-Ion battery pack be warranted for 8 yrs or 100,000 miles or in the CARB states 10 yrs / 150,000 miles? What if GM comes out with a 5 yr 60,000 mile warranty on the battery. That would be a huge perceptional disadvantage in the public's eye in comparison to Toyota's 8 or 10 yr warranty.

One trial ballon B Lutz has floated recently is a $30000 Volt with the buyer leasing the battery pack at an additonal monthly 'premium'. Interesting idea. But why? Reading between the lines I can see discussions going on between GM and A123 about the Li-Ions developing a memory and losing capacity over some period of time ...such as 5 yrs. How then does GM put out a product with half the warranty as Toyota? 60,000 miles is a little less than 2 yrs driving for me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SureValla @ Oct 8 2007, 05:16 PM) [snapback]522866[/snapback]</div>

When pigs can fly. And I don't mean in an airplane or by being thrown out of a window.

The batteries are available now, as several posters above have pointed out. Darell and Nate are driving their Rav4EVs, Allan and I are driving our Xebras (admittedly, not as nice a car, and doesn't go as far or as fast, but the batteries work and give us slightly over the Volt's claimed 40-mile range).

People bad-mouth the trusty old lead-acid battery. Sure, its energy density is lower than nickel or lithium. But if you actually want to build an EV, and if you have reasons for not wanting to use nickel or lithium, lead is available. GM could build the Volt today, using lead, and then put lithium in a future model when there's a lithium battery they like.