There is poll to vote on too.

DAAAAMMMM!

I work for the wrong frickin company

but Aveo costs $9,995 so there is no way you can still save money... or even better, you can buy an 86 Corolla instead of Prius and you will never be able to save enough to pay off Prius

.

Asuming you're not snarking me, you do realize that after X years, the Prius will still hold value that the P.O.S. Aveo wont (not to mention reduced maintenance costs, and uh... the ass factor). If you're buying a car already, not buying a Prius (or Hybrid Civic) means you either haven't done the math, or need something that a midsize car can't provide.

Take a close look at that graphic at the end of the article. It's attributed to Honda. Now look at the little (sketch) car. Honda makes nothing looking like that! It's a Prius! :lol:

Doesn't the Civic hybrid always keep its engine running? Their expanation of how a hybrid works is the Prius.

Honda has an excellent name and has built a tremendous track record.. but when it comes to hybrids.. toyota is the cats meow!...
I think alot of folks assume anything honda makes must be good so they give the benifit of a doubt and honda gets the credit.. not always warranted.

The civic hybrid is a milder hybrid than in Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive.

Up to MY2005, the gas engine stayed on all the time.

The 2006 has a special cylinder idle mode where the pistons still pump but no fuel is actually consumed at slower speeds. In this mode, it can cruise on battery power alone.

It's something like what the Prius does, but it's not as aggressive.

Still, the Civic is EPA rated at 50 MPG, mostly due to engine valve timing enhancements.

I think that we may all be missing an important truth.
Which is that both the Honda and Toyota Hybrid(s) are
currently soley fueled by gas, with no alternate source.

Both are still equally dependant on fossil fuels,
they are entirely dependant on them infact.

So while we debate the particulars of how they burn
fuel neither is capable of not burning that same old gas.

While I may conceed that the Prius is slightly closer
to having the ability to use another widely available
fuel source, the fact remains that today it still can not.

So untill the day when they can be plugged into a
gas pump or an electric socket neither are Hybrid
Fueled, which is more important then simply using less
of the same fuel no matter the form of Hybrid Power.

L8r
Ryan

So what?

One reason people buy hybrids is to support the technology and to encourage further progress. Consumers are voting with their money for improvements to the energy consumption profile.

The fact that we consumers have no option to support "alternate source" cars is utterly irrelevant. We are purchasing and using things that are on the market now. Of the cars on the market today, it seems clear that hybrids represent a way to vote *today* for cleaner air, better efficiency, and further technological advances.

You can wait for another fuel source before encouraging carmakers to improve things. Knock yourself out. Hybrid purchasers are making their statement now.

Right ON!!! With some development in the HV battery, the pulg-in hybrid will meet some of your alternate power needs. Very little or none of our electricity is produced by burning imported oil. The Prius would make a great plug-in; it even has the space waiting for the bigger HV battery. Go Toyota. I'll be one of the first to make a deposit assuming the base price is not over 30K.

One definition of hybrid:
a first generation cross between two genetically diverse parents.
www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/mg/manual/glossary.htm

I agree with your logic, except your missing one key... The prius "Does" run off of electricity... isn't it better that it is the best at creating its own fuel (electricity) out of wasted kinetic energy "thin air if you will", than having to plug it in and thereby pay?
I would much rather have the prius, than an electric car alone!

The prius is what a "hybrid" is... runs on both!.. whether the fuel is derived from "plug in" power or its created by the waste of the car.

In fact... cooking oil etc is merely Wasted energy too that we would otherwise trash.... no difference.... except that you have to buy it.... even if you could get someone to give it to you.... that would dry up as soon as other people needed it too?

thats why the prius doesn't qualify for a government "electric car" tax credit... http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_afv.shtml ...but gets the best for a "hybrid" tax credit.

Its not wise to derate the prius for still being solely dependant upon fossil fuel to get out the door... but once its out... it does the best with what its got....

When we run short in a resource.. the first step to moving to another, it to make the best with what we've got... the prius does just that!
__________________
ANd as I've said in other threads.... other fuels are almost meaningless as far as what our cost will be because they "corporatations" will still control it and us.. as long as we cannot access that fuel on our own without using our gascard!

At this point.. plug in is the best alternative... because the consumption of electricity for our cars is infringing upon all of americas use in homes and businesses... in order to control us and give us the shaft, they would have to do it to all.....
And since most people in north america go to sleep at night.. the power consumption is low and plenty left for charging cars!

The fact that prius still runs off of fossil fuel is not what makes it cool.... but the fact that it creates its own fuel is!

***Until the use of other fuels become very efficient and the ability to get your tank filled (or bank) etc is easy to access... I don't want a car that is not dependant upon fossil fuel...
you couldn't go on a trip!...... would get stranded at this point in time!
You will always be limited to a distance equal the next filling point.

Until we can make our own fuel out of the air, or even water.. some resource that is always available and cannot go up in price... we will still be dependant upon the assistance of someone else to help get our fuel... hence fuel prices!

If we ever use water.. we better be able to use normal water out of the tap.. or we have defeated our purpose economically..... if the water has to be "ionized, purified, additives etc.", then again we can controlled by the price! Have you checked the price of bottled water lately?????? Why do we pay so much????? An engine that runs off of water may be little different!

There are two slices of thought mentality.. one is worried about the planet.. and using the above resources would definately relieve the pressure for that, but the other thought "mine" is worried about my pocket book!.. thats what affects the quality of life for my family right now and my kids in the immediate future!
Maybe someday we can have both... but the big boys that make the big bucks will attempt to foul such a plan if possible..... its called greed!... talk to them about saving the planet!... we are just stuck on the other end of the stick dependent upon what is available for fuel.

I knew this would happen... Yes the Prius, and Hondas, run off of electricity which is entirely derived from gasoline onboard the vehicle. Sometimes the gas first applies kinetic energy to the vehicle which is then regened back into electricity, other times the engine acts as a generator and creates it directly. But at no time is electricity generated "out of thin air"!

Basicly regen is an Electric Vehicle (EV) feature, as is not wastefully ideling, no need for transmissions, and gobbs of torque at 0 rpms. Perhaps you only think you wouldn't want an EV/PHEV Plug-in Hybrid because you've never experianced one? Maybe you would find that you rarely use more then the range you could recharge at home (not the current 1 mile, but more like 40 to 100 miles, if built that way). Perhaps you wouldnt miss the gas stations at all, while still being able to use the on long trips to grandmothers house. Anyway the point is we're currently missing the best feature of EV's - Which is the ability to choose from a wide range of fuels, they could still have onboard generators, in which case they are series hybrid fueled vehicles.

Anyway, if you still think regen is a "Fuel" source see the
"First Law of Thermodynamics" or "Conservation of Energy"...
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
- and - This thread I was involved in rescently...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius-2G/message/45233

I guess I just think it might have been better to have begun with a vehicle that didn't use gas at all, and then give it the ability to do so when required, also making it a hybrid.

Perhaps begin with the GM EV1, E-10, Ford Ranger EV, Chrystler EPIC Minivan, Toyota RAV4-EV, Honda EV+, or some other "production" EV. Then add to them the hybrid abilities by including a small 15-30kW gas generator (about 1/3 the size of current hybrid Engines, 0.3Liter in the case of on Insight or EV1). Of course these EV's would actually have to go into serious levels of production to get their cost down, 200 to 1000 hand build vehicles don't make for good economics. You must know in your heart that a far less complex machine with 8 moving powertrain parts will be cheaper. Then there is the "regular maintainance", No oil changes or air filters...

That's right, Electricity is such a versital fuel that it can come from Hydro (where I am), Coal or NG (for most of the national mix, which are both domestic!), Wind power such as "Green Tags" and such can be purchased from utilities. But what I think is the most exciting part is that YOU CAN collect your own if you invest in that technology like PV or Wind generation, you can use the grid as a battery with Net-Metering. Oh right, there's nuclear aswell, but that's not exactly an "individule empowering" resource.

Regen is the more effecient use of existing energy, but it's not really a "fuel", see the thread above. Consider this. If you run out of gas (the fuel) can you use regen to get you home? No. What if you could use an electric outlet to recharge? Plugging in would be a fuel, but regen would not.

Electricity use in a vehicle is very effecient, how do you think Hybrids can get away with using this technology to increase the effeciency of gas consumption? I'm not saying that you couldn't still use gas, but rather gas and/or external electricity.

But isn't that exactly how normal cars and hybrids work today? You have to make
it to a gas station before you run out of gas. A PHEV would simply expand the number of refueling stations such that you could use gas stations or electric outlets.

That's why electric is good, it's so versitale, can come from so many places, we already have a national distribution infristructure, etc, etc...

I think that you may find that both are satisfied with a PHEV.
Only time will tell, and I offer it as food for thought,
of course you could still choose to drive a Hummer or a bicycle,
I would just like to see another option for me, plugging into electricity.

L8r
Ryan

ps.
Wouldn't You don't have to burn/BUY gas, but you can -or- You don't have to plug in, but you can in order to displace some gas consumption be a pretty big Hybrid Incentive?

Hey Hey..babe.. take a chill pill.. its ok!.... my statement about the thin air thing was ended with a phrase that said "if you will" ... I guess you won't!
It was my way of saying you get energy out of nothing you have to pay extra for.. thin air!... without the hybrid technology to do so.. you would waste tons of energy.. not matter where you got it from originally!.. remember ol Ab lincoln.. " a penny saved is a penny earned?"

YOu are really getting funny!... you sound like a bible thumper trying to catch me on some legal technicality to avoid seeing the obvious!
Whatever your definition says... I consider Regen a fuel!... because if you didn't have "regen" then you would have to "buy" the fuel instead.... too much algebra for you? :huh:

If you could get your "15-30kW generator" to make energy from the wasted kinetic energy of the car.. then yes... but it would'nt be "gas" silly boy!...
We don't want to carry a heavy generator and make electric energy with gas... the prius already does that!
But maybe that would be a plus for GM and Ford, since they can't pull of the other way! :lol:

[/b][/quote]
That's right, Electricity is such a versital fuel that it can come from Hydro (where I am), Coal or NG (for most of the national mix, which are both domestic!), Wind power such as "Green Tags" and such can be purchased from utilities. But what I think is the most exciting part is that YOU CAN collect your own if you invest in that technology like PV or Wind generation, you can use the grid as a battery with

Net-Metering. Oh right, there's nuclear aswell, but that's not exactly an "individule empowering" resource.

I realize we're almost on the same page, but answer me this:
In an electric car, which has regen, and plugs into an electric outlet for fuel.
Is the regen braking in such a vehicle fuel?
Or is it not simply an enabling technology for better use of the fuel it already had?

My point is that the gas generator on current hybrids are still somewhat oversized.
I'm looking for an EV-Heavy hybrid rather than our single fuel ICE-Heavy versions.

Absolutely...

I'm just trying to clarify two (or maybe three) things...
1. Be it a Honda, Toyota, or Ford, we aught not be bickering over their differances, because...
2. They are all currently single fuel (and as such not transitioning us to alternatives).
3. I take the honest truth very serious, so I can't let you get away with refering to regenerative braking as a fuel source when it's mearly a technology which makes better use of the real fuel, gas. If I let you off the hook here then my points #2 and #1 become invalid. Regen Braking is more akin to better aerodynamics, fuel injection vs carbirators, Idle-Stop, or low roll resistant tires in that they all increase the overall effeciency of the fuel. If the car used electricity as fuel the same benefits would apply, Regen and aerodynamics would increase it's effeciency.

EV drivers have a quite that might help:
"It's not electirc if you can't plug it in"
That is, It's not electric (Fueled) if you can't plug it in (to an outlet)
Of course, to them, this plugging in is considered a good thing.

L8r
Ryan

ps.
I just don't like to hear Prius Folk talking down to Honda Folk,
It makes them appear to have a superiority comples, when in
reality we're all missing out on the big picture, reaching 0 oil use.
Neither brands do it yet, but I can see how either one could be
upgraded to become far more versital PHEV Plug-In Hybrids.

pps.
You can edit your previous post to try and fix the funny QUOTE /QUOTE stuff, Check for a space between the [ and the Q in Quote... I think the ones at the very end of the message may be throwing it off... Use the "Preview Post" button, it's really handy, especially for complex posts... Just trying to keep the thread readable, I knew what I had said so it made sense to me but might not to others.

PHEVs are a great idea, don't me wrong but here in the US until we have a major source of low emissions power generation half (52%) of the electricity that you use to power the battery is derived from coal. Obviously that varies from place to place but that's the average. That's BAD.

It was pointed out that there are ways to generate this power in a distributed way and that's an excellent point. It's not quite relevant yet (it will be) and that's the problem. For PHEVs to be green we need sh*te loads of energy generation that doesn't spew CO2, SOx, NOx, and HG into the atmosphere on a massive scale. Nanotechnology seems to have solved the first problem of EV/PHEVs which was the really slow recharge time. Now we need a similar breakthrough in the cost of distributed power generation techology.

Tripp,
If we're dealing with a chicken/egg problem... why not at least support technology that removes one of the obstacles (chicken or egg) to fullscale adoption of green vehicles (either EVs or biodiesel)?

Personally, I am a big fan of both hybrids and diesel as ways to reduce OIL imports, as well as being green (I'd buy a TDI in 2007 when the diesel is cleaner).

PHEVs remove the obstacle of requiring petroleum-based fuel. Of course, it's useful that the fuel can be used, but being able to go completely electric allows certain people to be completely green, others to be greener than the Prius is now, and the rest who don't care to... well, continue not caring.

Meanwhile, a few years later, you get things like electricity chargers at gas stations and hell, even shopping malls and large parking lots, then you get the ability to perhaps have backup or larger batteries for increased range.

All the while PHEVs like the Prius/etc become more and more like EVs with a 2ndary fuel option.... perhaps you get the (what I'm really looking for) turbodiesel hybrid or the hydrogen fuel cell hybrid, or the solar self-charging hybrid (bonus: in hot days, car doesn't heat up, since the windows will have nanotech solar receptors and go opaque when the car is stopped).

And in the meanwhile packetized mass transit gets thriving, and maybe our 5th gen Prius will be able to "predictively accellerate and brake" on the road, eventually allowing it to be able to drive for you.

Toyota's vision (as I understand it) is to gradually move from a petro-economy to an generation-independent energy economy, with the car moving from an unclean petro burning dump to a large energy usage device that remains as the main transportation device.

Thanks for the tip.. I couldn't get it to work however... I didnt' notice any spaces between the [ and the Q in quote... maybe Im missing it?

Nothing personal, like I said Honda is a good car... just not my preference for a hybrid when there is a prius to choose instead.... but there is nothing wrong if you prefer Honda... as long as you understand the facts of how they work and the final talley that says it all.... performance and gas mileage!... comfort and amnenities are just frosting on the cake!

There is also nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.... if we as a nation hadn't learned to do that... we would have all been nuked by now.

I don't think it's necessarily chicken/egg. With hydrogen I think that's more true but not necessarily. I just think that it's important to recognize that PHEV's have potential issues. People need to be aware of where they're electricity is coming from. For example, here in Colorado about 80% of our electricity comes from coal. Until that changes CO PHEVs (gotta love acronyms) will not be an environmental solution, only an energy security one. However, I don't see it as a critical chicken/egg thing. It's not like everyone is going to buy a PHEV on the same day and suddenly we have 8 milllion cars plugged into the grid at night. It'll be gradual and we'll have time to come up with solutions.

I agree that PHEVs increase our choices. Electricity can be generated from all kinds of souces. Gasoline, OTOH, comes from oil. So, yes, PHEVs are fantastic in that respect.

Yeah, I'd like to see TDI hybrids myself. I don't think that we'll have to wait that long for them. Seems like they'd be a great intermediate solution to transportation energy issues. Especially a PHEV type. I wonder what kinda mileage you'd get with something like that if it were just a "regular" hybrid.

I think that we're on the cusp of a couple of major revolutions. First is the automotive revolution away for pure ICE designs to a variety of others and second an energy revolution. The way that people get electricity is going to fundamentally change.