There are many very quiet conventionally-engined cars, especially
when they're backing up and the engine is at the trailing end of
the vehicle.
.
_H*

Hmm... is "bollocks" the right word to describe that? Clearly some careful journalism going on there with quotes like:

And what about this:

If he couldn't see it or hear it, how did he know it almost hit him? If, by virtue of his "limited sight" he made out a vehicle passing near him, how does he know it was a hybrid, and not just another quiet car... at low speed, lots of cars are pretty quiet, especially in comparison to ambient street noise.

Seriously though, maybe instead of talking about a minimum noise level, everyone should be asking for a MAXIMUM noise level in all other vehicles. That way the ambient noise level on the average street goes down, and just the sound of the tires on pavement could be heard from far enough away. Blind people would be safe crossing the street, and quality of life would improve for the rest of us.

Hybrids, as well as other quiet conventional cars, are only quiet when moving at low speed. At higher speeds, tire noise on the road surface becomes the major factor. A blind person is going to have a hard time with any quiet car, regardless of the technology, but at low speeds the driver should easily avoid any blind pedestrians. This whole issue is a tempest in a teapot.

Tom

Here's a thought. Drivers could look out for pedestrians and try not to hit them, especially the blind, children, elderly and ipod users. Not to mention everyone else. Especially at night.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ichabod @ Nov 12 2007, 11:04 AM) [snapback]538403[/snapback]</div>

When the very first generation of Hybrids came out, I know a blind woman who was almost hit by an Insight. She listened for traffic like she was supposed to, didn't hear anything, stepped off the curb, and Screeeech!

The guy stopped to make sure she was OK, and explained what a hybrid was. She is no fan of hybrids.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Nov 12 2007, 03:24 PM) [snapback]538524[/snapback]</div>

That blind woman is an idiot if she hates hybrids for that reason.

She should hate the driver who should have been paying enough attention to stop for someone who was about to cross the street. It IS illegal to do anything but stop for a pedestrian in most places. Whether I'm driving a Prius or a "noisier" car, I always tend to keep my attention on my surroundings enough to know when someone is about to cross the street. I know some people would speed up in order to pass before said pedestrian set foot in the cross-walk, but the safe, smart, and legal thing to do is slow down, stop and let them cross.

Blind people, at least the ones I know and the ones I have seen crossing streets, take extra caution and extra time in crossing. That should leave attentive drivers more than enough time to assess the situation and avoid any risk.

All of that having been said, as a pedestrian and as a cyclist I always assume that drivers can't/don't/won't see me, and I take extra caution myself. Even if I know I'm right, I'd rather yield my right than be run over (and I've still been run over a few more times than I'd like! One time it even involved a vehicle I didn't hear coming! It wasn't a hybrid though ).

In short, everyone needs to slow down, and be careful.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ichabod @ 2007 11 12 13:32) [snapback]538577[/snapback]</div>

I hear you. I call it 'right of weight'.

I understand cyclists need a horn, and hikers need a 'bear bell', but no way am I walking around town with a 'minimum noise generator' dangling off my left earlobe.

Hi All,

I am not exactly sure how the blind know that every car that coasts by in fuel cut mode is a Hybrid? Many cars do this as soon as one lifts his foot off the accellerator. All cars will do this soon. So no more "thousands of explosions" to be heard from any car, hybrid or not. By the way, present cars do not explode fuel at all. Its a controlled burn, with very little impact noise.

With regards to backing up, the Prius brakes make a clunk when the hydraulics kick in. Because, the car has no reverse gear or idling engine, one needs to push on the accellerator when reverse is selected to get the car to move. As soon as one touches the brake pedal - clunk due to the strong hydraulic system. In a traditional car, you back up with your foot on the brake. So, the brakes are silently rubbing, and pushing them harder makes no more noise.

Minimum noise standards are worthless. Because something is always louder and can cover up the noise. I have pointed this out this hazard near O'hare airport with overhead aircraft and 18 wheeler truck that cannot be heard 10 yards away, at 30 mph. Nothing will save a blind person in that situation, or an inattentive sighted person either (almost happened to me).

In one of the many other threads on this issue there was discussion of a technological fix. My proposal was a fan starter coded emtter to be worn by blind people. It would start the cooling fans on cars within range when the blind person pointed it and pushed the button. It could also light up a dashboard indicator at the same time. This proposal gets around the something is always louder, as the blind person would not attempt to trust their ears if something louder than a cooling fan was present. The change in audio that is synchronised to the pushing of the button tells the blind person that a vehicle is in range for sure. And of course it allerts the driver to the desire of the blind pedestrian to cross a street somewhere nearby.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ichabod @ Nov 12 2007, 04:32 PM) [snapback]538577[/snapback]</div>

And if you have no idea if a car is coming or not, how are you supposed to "yield your right"?

There should be a bell or other sound we can turn on when needed!

There should be a bell or other sound we can turn on when needed!
That is one reason why locomotives and cab cars have bells and horns- cab cars with no power are notoriously quiet. Locomotives normally cannot be heard until you are too close ........

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Nov 12 2007, 12:24 PM) [snapback]538524[/snapback]</div>

I once took a blind person home from church and he loved the sounds (and lack) that the car made. He said he hope his wife gets one when they get a new car.

I wonder what the blind reaction is to an electric car.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Nov 12 2007, 06:33 AM) [snapback]538305[/snapback]</div>

Second the Jetson car noise! It was used to great effect in the Simpsons episode in which a fortune teller showed Lisa her future in college and her marriage plans.

Note that the NFB wants a *minimum* noise level (that is, to ensure that the car will make at least X dB of noise), not to minimize the noise.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Nov 13 2007, 01:35 AM) [snapback]538742[/snapback]</div>

I was just pointing out both sides of the "caution" game. Accidents will always happen, and they usually happen accidentally, but when cars are involved in "accidents" it's usually someone's fault. And more often than not, especially when pedestrians are concerned, it's an inattentive driver's fault.

That's why I mentioned my own experience with being hit by a (non-hybrid) vehicle that I didn't hear coming... it hit me from behind, and BOY was I surprised! The driver's excuse: "You were in the way." I'm NOT KIDDING. He actually said that to me. His car took more damage from my bike than my body took from his car, so I felt it worked out OK in the end

People are hit by noisy cars too, and I defy you to show me collected police reports that indicate more hybrids involved in pedestrian collisions per capita than conventional cars. If that were the case, I have a feeling it would be mentioned in the article posted above. In fact, I'd go a step further and suggest that it's irresponsible journalism to even suggest such a thing without police reports to back up the claim that the Evil Quiet Hybrids™ are an especially troubling menace to the blind.

Donee... Since your proposed tech solution would require integration with all vehicles, and in concern for the safety of a tiny minority, and obviously a long lead-in time for older cars w/o the device installed to either install or get off the road... and the inevitable, and inevitably frequent failure of the devices to behave as expected, I'd say it's a bad idea. Maybe something more like a hand-held sonar device... point it in a direction and if there's a large, oncoming object, you'll hear a higher pitch... but any tech solution like that runs the risk of becoming a crutch that leads you into danger when it fails to work correctly all the time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aaf709 @ Nov 12 2007, 11:11 PM) [snapback]538762[/snapback]</div>

Why shear, abject hatred, of course. If it weren't for there being more hybrids on the road than EVs, EVs would be taking the brunt of this. I've had a fully sighted person walk directly INTO the side of my stopped EV*. There's only so much we can do, ya know?

*Want to know how it happened? Of course you do. I was in a Safeway parking lot trying to exit the lot. A guy was standing at the curb on his tip-toes looking over the cars trying to find somebody, apparently. The last time he looked foward, there were no cars near him. While he scanned the lot behind him, I'd pulled up near him and was waiting while somebody else blocked my way while backing out of a spot in front of me. I was stopped completely. The guy on the curb steps off the curb and literally walks into my driver's door.

So... we can protect the blind. How will we protect the hard-of-hearing... and the stupid?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Nov 13 2007, 03:48 PM) [snapback]539049[/snapback]</div>

I have driven through my neighborhood many times in EV mode and scared the crap out of pedestrians from time to time. However, I'm always driving below 25 mph and am careful not to get too close to them. It's kind of funny, though, to see them jump like that. Bottom line is that they're not paying attention to their surroundings and they're not blind so as you alluded to, you don't have to be blind to get hit by a car. This opens up a huge can of worms on the regulations front and you know how badly government screws up in this area. You can't legislate people in to being aware, unfortunately, but government always finds a way to stick it to the other guy. Especially when the other guy is small and doesn't have a large, loud lobby to beat the crap out of lawmakers who try to mess with those they represent.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Nov 13 2007, 04:48 PM) [snapback]539049[/snapback]</div>

As the old saying goes: "You can't fix stupid." Perhaps cow catchers would be a nice addition.

Tom

National Federation of the Blind?

Aren't they that myopic group which is also championing putting legally blind people on Segway Human Transporters?
http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications...10/bm061012.htm

Talk about making walking . . . even on sidewalks . . . a scary scenario. :wacko: :blink: :blink:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Nov 13 2007, 06:35 PM) [snapback]539098[/snapback]</div>

I can't believe you said that about a blind group! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Tom

OK, here's a solution!