Hyundai's 2011 Sonata Heaps Hurt on Other Hybrids

Hyundai’s 2011 Sonata Heaps Hurt on Other Hybrids | Product Reviews | Wired.com

"Now Hyundai’s added a battery and electric motor to the already impressive Sonata. The result is a vehicle that puts the Toyota Camry and Ford Fusion hybrids in a world of hurt. The Sonata Hybrid will deliver a devastating blow to its opponents when it rolls into showrooms later this year. It’s roomier, more comfortable and much more handsome, with a hybrid system that cleverly balances fuel economy and cost."

The more hybrids the merrier, but this author rather overloaded on the hyperbole, especially for a car he hasn't actually driven yet. This part was news to me though:

"Like Honda, Hyundai sandwiches an electric motor – 30-kilowatts (40 horsepower) in this case—between the engine and the six-speed automatic. But unlike the Insight, Hyundai added a computer-controlled clutch between the engine and motor, allowing them to disengage so the Sonata hybrid can run on battery power alone."

It's an ASSIST hybrid. There's only a single motor available... which typically translates to a limited amount of electricity available. The FULL hybrids have an ample supply available, since they use their second motor to generate electricity. It happens pretty much whenever the engine is running. Will Hyundai be using an alternator to mimic that ability?

Without lots of electricity available, the electric propulsion & A/C abilities can't be used as much.

For that matter, is the A/C even electric?
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the prolem is not only reviewing cars you havn't driven yet, even after they come out, it takes years to find out what they are really all about. it took how long for honda to discover they were prematurely killing the civic hybrid battery?

No, the one motor generates or uses electricity. It is 30kw, the prius battery can at most supply 27 kw so it can likely assist or generate as much as the prius.

It is hyundai's first hybrids so there are likely some things they missed compared to toyota, but this should be as full a system as hsd. Hsd should have advantages at lower speeds compared to the hyundai system.

Clearly it does not do a good job with regen brakes. The city MPG shows it. At low city speed, wind resistence is minimal. The regen brakes and EV propulsion at very light load are the key to city MPG.

Looks like they got a little carried away with the chrome on the exterior.

If you use a conventional gearbox, automatic or manual, you do not need 2 electric MGs. 2 MGs are only required to make the (pretty unique, CLEVER) PSD (summing machine) work, workable.

".. use their second motor to generate electricity.."

Actually there are times when BOTH of the Toyota HSD system's MGs are generating electricity. But clearly, the single MG in the Hyundai can be used to generate electricity at the same level, manner, times, and just as efficiently as the Toyota HSD.

More than one way to skin a cat...

"..mimic that ability.."

No "mimic" requirement.

Why would the Hyundai hybrid require an alternator..??

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Least we forget, Hyundai already has DFI in their bag of tricks wherein Toyota seems to be well under the power curve on that matter.

An Atkinson DFI engine, 15:1 base/native compression ratio...

I disagree. I think the lack of a CVT may be hurting here more than any perceived deficiency in the hybrid components.

That said, the Sonata hybrid is expected to come in at 36/40 city/hwy mpg. Lets look at it's primary competition:

Camry Hybrid: 31/35
Fusion Hybrid: 41/36

Clearly blows the Camry out of the water. Appears to be similar to the Fusion, when looking at the combined fuel economy.

The Sonata is getting very good reviews from the motoring press - the Hybrid is as well as those drivers tend to prefer a regular transmission over CVTs and the Sonata 6-spd auto is a very good unit.

It'll very likely be cheaper than both the Camry/Fusion by a couple thousand making it only slightly more than the Prius.

I predict that the Sonata will quickly become the #2 selling hybrid in the USA behind the Prius.

Toyota especially has some catching up to do - a drivetrain update of the Camry to boost economy has been overdue since the Fusion hybrid was released.

"...regular transmission over CVTs..."

First, let's not overlook the fact that the Toyota HSD system does not use a conventional CVT. Toyota calls it a PSD, Power Summing Device. While from the user/driver's standpoint the PSD is the functional equivalent of an actual CVT, it serves some functionality unique to the HSD system.

Preference of a 6(9) speed automatic transaxle......

Are you hearing/reading all the complaints about the "dithering", continuous gear hunting, of these new 6(9) speed transaxles, seemingly indecisive regarding which gear ratio is most appropiate for te current road/terrain conditions..? To reach FE ratings even close to a CVT these new 6(9) speed automatic transaxles have to continuously hunt for the most optimal gear ratios in accordance with road and terrain conditions, CONSTANTLY changing conditions.

Unless you're on the UT salt flats.

I encountered my first one of these about 4 years ago in a Chrysler Sebring. Dammed annoying, I could NOT find a way to get it to settle down and remain in just one gear for any distance at all. I found myself wishing for a way to LOCK the gear box into ONE ratio.

Be-that-as-it-may, with good, well written control firmware a CVT, or PSD, could easily have as many gear ratio "notches" as the 6(9) speed. The driver could still "stir" the "stick" or paddle shift, at will, or leave the computer in control for a nice smooth and comfortable ride and higher FE.

Manual gear boxes will likely remain around well into the future, but I suspect the automatic ones have already seen their best days.

CVT's (PSD's) RULE...!!

The PSD provide flexibility, allowing for each MG to operate at the best speed for that particular situation as well as the ability to rapidly change.

Tying a MG directly to an engine/gearbox reduces opportunity if RPM is tied directly to something else.
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i disagree. we get 38-45 mpg with our hycam. i think different cars test differently on the epa test. real world numbers are most important. (except for sales and marketing) i would like to hear real numbers from fusion owners. i would be surprised if you could do much better on a car the size and weight of camry.

It can operate up to 62mph on EV only; with the gas engine turned off. I don't consider it an "assist" when that is occurring.

Source: http://priuschat.com/forums/attachm...-hybrid-model-anounced-for2011-cimg5073_4.jpg

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Lacking the ability to generate electricity at the same time, it wouldn't qualify as a FULL.

Being able to provide thrust via an electric motor without dependency on the battery-pack seems trivial, until you climb a large hill. The FULL hybrid not only can supply so much electricity on-the-fly to do that, it can also recharge then too. An ASSIST does nothing but draw then. So with one, you can end up with a topped off battery after the climb. The other is just drained.

In real-world driving, differences like that have resulted in rather obvious MPG advantage for the FULL hybrid.

Another example is what happens in stop & slow traffic. The amount of electricity available...
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John the motor can generate electricity while the engine is driving . wheels in the hyundai (or honda ima). The advantages of this system over ima is the motor can run the wheels without the engine even at high speeds, up to 62mph. Come to think of it that is an advantage versus the prius also, no really low artificial 10 mph limit when you start up or a 25 mph limit later. The motor size and battery pack power may give it better hypermiling ability than the toyota or honda hybrids.

I'm not sure what you mean by thrust from the electric motor without draining the battery pack. If you mean the modes where the prius generates power with one motor then sends it to the other, I do not see the advantage of doing that over simply powering the car with the engine. That cuts out the losses

The psd can choose more efficient ratios especially at low speeds, but at high speeds the engine in a sonata can sit happily in an efficient and/or powerful range. The epa estimates are higher for this car than the TCH which has similar weight. We will see if the better mileage from this system happens in the real world. It is not going to get prius figures, that would require a lighter car, likely with smaller wheels and lower rolling resistance tires. My guess is it will get within a few mpg on long highway trips as the prius V, but the prius will have a big lead in long drives in the city.

Not bad for a first gen! If the price undercuts the competition significantly, it will sell quite well! Now if Hyundai can build a hybrid from the ground up that can match or beat the Prius, then we got a horse race!

The situation is pretty much never that absolute. Lots of changing conditions very quickly is usually the situation.

During the climb, you'll benefit from the extra torque and excess electricity will be routed back to the pack. It helps to keep the engine RPM in check too.

Clever engineering & programming can deal with that too. We'll just have to see what Hyundai chose for their approach. And of course, it's entirely possible they chose not to. The charge-level could actually be on the low side as with other ASSIST hybrids. The fact that this one offers a clutch with a larger motor tends to indicate benefit from a plug later more so than competing directly with no-plug FULL hybrids.
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Here's to wishing Hyundai well with their latest entry into hybrid-ism. I can't help thinking how the Gen II Insight was suposed to be the Prius killer. You know how well THAT went.

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