This makes sense. However, VW is pretty happy with their diesel sales:

Green Car Congress: VW Diesels Represented 26% of Its Total US Sales in June

So Toyota went from 10,000 to 13,000 May to June and VW is up to the 5,000 unit scale. IMHO, they probably took a big chunk of the Honda Insight sales. The Jetta TDI sedan has a vehicle body compared to the Honda Insight but neither really competes with the 2010 Prius in price or performance.

Bob Wilson

I'm afraid this could be bad news for everyone. Yes, I think the Prius is a superior product but failure of the Insight is bad news for Hybrids in general.

I have to wonder how this will affect Hondas supposed plans to expedite a Honda Fit Hybrid. Seems like they advanced that idea when the Insight seemed to be selling well. Can't really see them offering another competing Honda Hybrid if they can't sell the Insight as it is.

Plus, I think I've got to move my purchase of The Prius up. I'm afraid if Toyota decides The Insight isn't a threat anymore, they will increase the price of the base models. Right now, I think a pkg2, pkg3 is a good value and I think competition created that value.

I don't want an Insight, but I would wish it could have a moderate amount of success because I think that works well for everyone.

What your saying is very true. thats why there hasn't been a bg movement towards smaller cars with good gas milage. The only thing that will help the cause is hiigh gas prices, like over 4$ for over a year then people will buy them. Most people don't care about anythiing but themselfs and money, so high gas prices will make most people care, for the wrong reasons but still care.

I disagree that the reviewers have been negative about the Insight. I've read quite a few that have rated it higher than the Gen III Prius in Comparison tests i.e. Car and Driver.

The Consumer Reports review may hurt it further but the Gen III Prius is the major competition for Honda and the FFH acclaim also doesn't help.

I think there is a place where the IMA system makes sense, the smallest vehicles including motorcycles. Their compact size and ability to provide the low-end torque makes a lot of sense. I just don't see the IMA scaling well to larger vehicles.

Bob Wilson

Reviews for the Insight have been all over the place. Unfortunately a bad review from a major outlet can do more damage than 3 good reviews from less respected or known outlets. People forget nice, they remember bad. However, yes there have been some good reviews for the Insight.

I totally agree. I don't see the IMA scaling to larger vehicles. Trouble seems to start when the battery starts to age or weaken. HSD is superior for larger applications and for maintaining benefit as it ages. IMO.

The Car & Driver review was ridiculous. They rated the Prius above the Insight for the entire article, then at the end catapult the Insight to first place because it would be so cheap that it would ignite a revolution and everyone could afford a hybrid.

Problem is, it's not really cheap. I was tempted, but when I saw how much less you get for not very much less money, I got a Prius III.

EDIT: And yes, the IMA is a bandaid at best. THe more I've learned about the HSD, the more brilliant it is. There really IS a synergy at having the engine and TWO electric motor/generators all working together through the PSD. It's way more than the sum of the parts.

i really hope americans see instead of the stupid europeans that diesels are dirty ice's and that diesels dont get a bigfoot on US ground like the diesel have in the EU

ofcourse being from the EU i can call the EU people that drive a diesel stuppid europeans like 80% of them

Might as well 'back of the envelope' what I think is the right design:

• external combustion engine - sized for 75 mph up 6% grade
• 4-wheel direct drive motors - drive-in wheels
• capacitor-battery energy storage - sufficient to reach 75 mph up a 6% grade before requiring external combustion engine power (would accept hydraulic-battery systems).
• cabin space - 2010 Prius is good but also want utility van and convertible, sports model
• seats provide heating and cooling - individual controls
• integration with home, office, and appartment HVAC, so vehicle is grid ready and ready to leave grid at all times

Of course this requires massive amounts of 'unobtanium', which no doubt would be an ecological disaster in some minds. Nothing like PowerPoint engineering ... it worked so well for the hydrogen-fraud advocates.

Bob Wilson

i surmise that the insight is suffering because it is too similar to the prius in shape - when given a choice of two versions of essentially one shape, people see the value and the mpgs and buy the prius in higher #s.

if the insight were more differentiated it would likely do better

I believe its also Toyotas Gen III pricing that literally killed the Insights competitiveness. Prior to the price release all analysts predicted that the Gen III would be priced above the previous Gen but most agree that the current pricing is more than a bargain given the new techs. If the rumored profit margins expressed on the blogs prove to be correct Toyota would have pulled off a major coup by the use of their R&D and engineering prowess.

This is like Intel vs. AMD: don't wake the giant. Had Toyota not innovate past Gen 2, the Insight would eat Toyotas' lunch. With Gen3 Toyota leapfrogged the Insight with one swift move.

With that said who needs the government to come to save their butts. The winners including Ford are all those that don't go to the Feds to beg for money.

My 1.5 cents (I have to more now for an LA county tax increase).

[Emphasis added.]

This is sometimes rather crudely stated:

One "Oh, Sh|t!" wipes out a thousand "Atta' Boys!"

IIRC, in sales, it is also axiomatic that a customer with a bad
experience will tell seven people, whereas a good experience results
in but a single positive referral.

Human nature would seem to have a decidedly negative bias-- or
perhaps merely conservative, resistant to change. Must be a species
survival strategy...

If it looks to good to be true, -- many good reviews -- than it isn't --
the single bad review.

A classic case of "herd think." Baaa.

It's funny, I'm not aware of any sales that we've lost to the Insight where I work. Granted I don't talk to an awful lot of new car customers (I am the Used Car Manager but I do end up getting involved in a lot of new car deals) but the consensus that I have observed is that people really like the Prius a LOT better than the insight, heck, we had people cross-shopping 09 Priuses against insights and we didn't lose a deal to the insight then.

Neither of these cars are "cheap" for what they are IMNSHO. The Prius costs as much as a comparably equipped Camry and it's Corolla-Sized, the Insight is even smaller and still $20k+. I think where Honda screwed up is that they didn't tstop and think that people buy Hybrids largely because of their advanced technology and "cool factor" and making an inferior product that's at best 10% cheaper isn't perhaps the slickest move in the universe.

I saw a 2010 Prius in the Bally's gym parking lot today .... next to a Gen2 and 3 over from another Gen2. Mine was parked out a little further as always.

I've seen more 2010 Pri's in the last week (5 of them) than I've seen 2010 Insights since March.

I just don't think Honda has the winning platform in the Insight for the majority of Americans.

Not saying that just because I bought a Prius .... I don't believe the Insight is a winner because of its small size in backseats and tepid power (98 HP total).

I'm surprised. I thought there was more demand than supply for both cars.
In my area, I have seen about six or seven Insights on the road and only two 2010 Priuses on the road. Hey, "actual" sales numbers tell the real story. I just would have never believed it based on what I see on the road and dealer lots (in my area, of course).

It's down cause it's an inferior car that's priced too closely to the 2010 Prius. What the insight needs most is either more hp and mpg or a $3000 markdown.

What's annoying and almost comical is the Honda fanboy at CR rates Insight is the lowest score ever! - GreenHybrid - Hybrid Cars asserting that the "Insight EX and Civic Hybrid are better values than the Prius."

The HCH is not as useful a car as the 2010 Prius. The HCH has a tiny trunk. And by the time a tall driver shoves the front seat back, there is almost nothing left for legroom behind that seat.

The 2010 Pri can accomodate a tall driver while leaving decent legroom behind. To be exact, if you move the 2010 Pri's seat all way back/down, the leftoom behind is a bit tight, but even I, at 6'2" can move up a click or 2 and feel great in the '10.

The Insight? Where to start? Small car with small backseat, light weight, small tires, 36 less HP, ....

but let's not forget ... $2k cheaper, EX with Nav ($23.7k vs. '10 Pri III/ Nav $25.7k) !!

whoopeee

My Gen2 has better interior room than the '10 Insight, but the Insight has better front seats .... and the '10 Pri has better front seats than the Insight. Good luck Honda.

Also, Honda needs a clue in the 'usefulness' department. For example ...

fold and tumble rear seats in the CR-V? You lose a foot of cargo length and get a non-flat floor with seat hooks.

Anyone seen the retarded rear seat folding in an Element? Rear seat lay flat, then you muscle them up to pin against rear side windows .... does wonders for visibility looking over your right shoulder. Had to conceal a chuckle as salesperson showing that great feature ... not.