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It all started with a flat tire, and now I beg for your help!

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by jendbbay, Aug 31, 2013.

  1. jendbbay

    jendbbay Member

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    We had a 110,000 mile, 52MPG on average, Prius Touring Edition, with all the bells and whistles of the best 08 Prius.

    Then we had a flat tire. I had it towed on a flatbed to the same tire store (Firestone) that had replaced our tires at 60,000 miles. Our first set lasted so long, because we have a touring and therefore don't have those weird, lower quality tires that many had. Also, our first replacement set did cause a decrease in MPG, but that went away fairly quickly.

    So at the Firestone dealership the guy showed me how the side seam had separated, split open, from the bottom of the tire and that this meant the car was out of alignment and that I therefore had to have all new tires. I realized that this was 10K early, but I went for it, given that we depend on this car to be perfect and we would need all new tires anyway.

    He sold me Ecopias. My husband hated the way the car drove, took it back to Firestone, stood there and watched, as they realigned the tires. This means there have no been two alignments since this second set of tires were installed, one at the time of installation and one a few weeks later.

    My husband still hated the way the car drove. Initially, there was 45 pounds all the way around. He had that decreased to 30, for some reason.

    I drove the car to Luscious Garage in San Francisco -- a 90 mile one-way trip from Santa Cruz -- and they found that the Firestone store in Santa Cruz had failed to properly align the tires. Their repeat of the alignment and subsequent report showed that initially the front tires toed out, which is the opposite of how they should be. I think there was also a problem with the right rear alignment, the very one that had been wrong initially, according to Firestone. Luscious Garage rocks. I believe they do their level best at all times. I gladly paid the 110 dollars, which covered the alignment and the 30 dollars for a check out of the car, including driving it around, and such. I called the Firestone dealership and they promised to compensate me for this cost. Also, Luscious increased the pressure to 40 all the way around, saying that this was the happiest medium, with 45 being arguably high and 30 being too low.

    By the way, the car was getting 46 to 47 MPG after the new tires were put on, until I drove it to SF to Luscious, where they did the realignment. When I drove it back, it was getting 56. I have no idea what it has been getting since, but yesterday it was getting 47 for the brief time I was driving it around to see what I thought of it.

    Now we are at least 5 weeks later and my husband hates the way the car drives. He wants to take it in to the Toyota Dealership. I am against that for the following reasons. a. the so-called certain cause of all the trouble, according to my husband, is the recall that involves something to do with the steering wheel or something. I am 99.99999 per cent sure I already got that recall taken care of, and even if I didn't, I don't believe that's the problem. We will, find that out tomorrow, however and be sure that it is taken care of. b. I believe that if you take a car to the Toyota Dealership and tell them there is something wrong, they will find something to fix that costs a minimum of 700 dollars, and they will fix that thing, and your car will be no better. However, just to put my husband's mind at ease, I see no problem with him taking the car in, having the oil changed, (assuming we can yell them into putting the synthetic that we always use in and not too much as they often do) and then having them drive it around to see what they think. They can also check to see if we did or didn't do the recall in question. They can also check the alignment.

    Note about alignment issues: Firestone has one of the fancy 20 thousand dollar alignment machines that are so perfect that even a child can use them. My husband believes they are dong the alignment, because he watches and is convinced. However, Luscious does not have such a machine. They have manual tools that work just as well, and don't want to pay for the 20 thousand dollar machine. Their mechanic says that "it is not true that any moron can work the alignment machines at Firestone" and that if you don't understand what you are doing, you may well set the car up incorrectly from the start and that it will seem like something is being aligned, but it isn't really happening or happening right. Moreover, the Luscious Garage mechanic swears that the bolts or whatever it is that must be loosened, tightened, or changed on the Prius were not touched and he was extremely skeptical that any alignment had been done at all, proper or otherwise. So regarding alignments we have a multitude of opinions here, including: Firestone's perfect machine, my husband's perfect watching of the perfect machine, my complete ignorance about whether the machine or the Luscious mechanic is doing the job right, my having felt guilty, because I had never done a realignment, the Luscious mechanic having reassured me that I should not have to realign the car unless I hit something, get hit, or get new tires. All sides are either ignorant --me -- or they are extremely confident -- my husband -- or they are experts -- the luscious mechanic. So this is a side issue that I have spent no small number of hours trying to reconcile with no luck. Did Luscious really align it correctly? Did Firestone? etc. etc. I believe in Luscious, of course.

    While we wait to take the car to the dealer tomorrow, I am writing a note to the Firestone Manager -- a new woman who took over after the guy that put my new tires on the car was suddenly fired. I have not yet received my 90 dollars, because I could not print my Luscious receipt, because my printer doesn't work, I'm trying to do actual work and am busy, and I'm refinancing my house and a million other things, so I have not managed to get my receipt to her. I do recall her saying that she would "make this right."

    So, what I'm thinking of doing -- after my husband has the oil changed, the car driven around, and the recall verified -- is to take the car back to the dreaded Firestone place, show her the original Luscious receipt, at minimum get my 110 dollars, and preferably get new tires, after explaining that my husband HATES the way the car drives, and assuming that the Toyota dealership finds no other issue -- I know this is inconsistent with what I said about them above, but I can always hope.

    So, my issues for the list are.

    What kind of tires would be good, assuming the Firestone manager wants to replace the tires, a pipe dream, I realize.

    If the Toyota dealership DOES find a problem, what VALID problem might cause the issues my husband is experiencing. They are: reduced mileage, horrible handling. Specifically, the car does not turn when you turn the steering wheel, until you have turned it a lot farther than you used to have to turn it. This is true in both directions. In other words, turn to the left, it does not turn. Turn to the right, it does not turn. Turn it further, it turns. Also, he thinks the car is dangerous, and I guess this is because it is slow to respond, and then it finally responds, and the thinks of this delayed response as likely to be too much of a response such that the car could go into a spin out at higher speeds. This happened, he thinks or claims, when we were coming home from vacation and he had to do a hard stop at an intersection, to avoid broadsiding a car that was turning in front of us. He claims that the car nearly lost control at that point. I believe that is FALSE. I think he is confusing the way a Prius feels when you do a hard stop and possibly also turn on the traction control and/or the anti-lock brakes. I was in the back seat to avoid arguing with him about his obsession that the car is dangerous, and I confess that I did not check to see whether the anti-lock or Traction control icons lit up at the time. However, I did take over as driver and felt ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM AT ALL except that the car seemed to lack some responsiveness, which I attributed to the fact that we had it loaded to the gills with camping garbage.

    If you read this far, I'll give you a deal on the software we sell.
     
  2. jgilliam1955

    jgilliam1955 Sometime your just gotta cry! 2013 Prius 4.

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    Wow...Wow...Wow...textless right now...Wow!:eek:
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i'm sorry, i lost focus there for a bit. do you have any complaint other than your husband doesn't like the way the car drives? nevermind, i got down to the free software part. sounds like dh needs to go for a drive with the luscious mechanic. there was a steering recall, but i think it was for no steering, not slow steering.
     
  4. jendbbay

    jendbbay Member

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    When you turn left it does not immediately turn. When you turn right, it does not immediately turn. This lack of quick response seems balanced. Eventually it does turn. He seems to believe that it turns more and more quickly as you turn the wheel, and this causes him to worry that it will tend to fishtail. Also, it used to get 52 and now it gets 47 to 49 mpg. Also, I can't assemble a reasonable world view of alignments, given the different strong opinions on how this is best done.

    I am very sorry for the length of this message, but it is a long, painful story. My husband believes the car is junk and dangerous at this point. I'm more than happy to take over the car, but he believes it is too dangerous.
     
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i'm not qualified to comment on alignment vs steering responsiveness. if you don't notice what your dh does, it might be nothing at all. i would certainly trust lg over firestone. i suppose the different tyres could feel different as well. ecopia's have a pretty good rep.

    at 110,000, why not look around?
     
  6. jendbbay

    jendbbay Member

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    I LOVE the car and I want it to last as long as possible. I want to pass the 200K and 300k milestones. Its my husband who needs the car to drive long distances each day, so it makes more sense for him to have the economical and safe car.
     
  7. jendbbay

    jendbbay Member

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    Cliff Notes to Original Post, written by Original Poster
    1. What kind of tires are best.
    2. What kind of problem could cause a car to be less responsive to turning left or right than it was before it had new tires put on it.
    3. Documented cases of apparent lack of success at aligning the car and then proper alignments did not remedy the lack of responsiveness issue.
    4. The car seems to have gone from solidly 52 MPG before new tires, to 46 or 47 after new tires, to 56 after 3rd realignment, to 47 to 49 again.

    The above is a list of questions, without any inherit order of importance.
     
  8. Robo

    Robo Junior Member

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    I had my tires aligned at Mid City Toyota in Eureka, ca, along with 4 new yokohama tires installed and balanced. I am getting about 52 mpg with these eco tires. So far everything is running great with the new tires and alignment. I would go to the dealer that you trust, and get all your work done there, unless Luscious garage is closer, there prices are cheaper, and the quality of work is great. If I lived closer I would go to see them, but the dealer here is super,but higher prices.
     
  9. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    Yeah the turning issue is because the toe in or out is way wrong. The tie rods are not aligned properly.

    I caused this very issue rebuilding a car's front end years ago. Installed new tie rods and messed it up. It was a scary ride to the front end alignment store as the car steered exactly as you described.

    You turn into a corner and have to turn in more then you should and halfway through the corner you realized you turned to much. Really scary.

    But, there's also some compensation made to "turn in feel" to cars. Its either done with software or by changing the steering axle ratio. Depends alot on the wheelbase of the car. In a Prius its done in the steering motor assy I believe. Makes the steering wheel feel more logarithmic as you turn into a corner. There are software alignments for this moter iirc.
     
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  10. jendbbay

    jendbbay Member

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    Can you advise as to how I can test something to make sure precisely what is wrong and then fix it and make sure it is fixed?
     
  11. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Phwew..

    The problem with any advice here is you are juggling so many "potential" issues that may or may not be related.
    Tires, Steering and Alignment....

    I'd pick one issue at a time and work towards resolution. The potentially most dangerous is the way the vehicle seems to be steering. Take it to Luscious, or Take it to Toyota...but get that fixed. Whatever it is, that isn't normal, and that isn't safe. It also is a direct symptom that can be easily reproduced. Therefore Luscious or Toyota, showing someone exactly what is happening should be easy.

    Maybe nailing down the steering issue will simultaneously lead you to proper alignment.

    And then as far as tires go? It's not uncommon for people having new tires put on to experience a loss of MPG's.
     
  12. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

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    If the issue is not as Ed says, related to toe in, then it might possibly be something related to the steering shaft recall. What happens there, is that there can be a sheared spline connection in the steering shaft, which would cause the play that you describe. (The shaft can also break, but that is a worst case scenario.) So do make sure that you had the steering shaft recall done, and if so ignore this factor. I had mine done, and it necessitated a front end realignment. I noticed an improvement in MPG as a result. The Prius is sensitive to this aspect.

    For future advice, I recommend writing like you were doing a lab report. Start crossing out lines until it no longer conveys the idea.
     
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  13. jendbbay

    jendbbay Member

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    My tires are not so new anymore. We put them on in the beginning of June. The problem started immediately after the new tires were put on. Immediately. It caused immediate desperate attempts to get help. I've written about this problem in the past, and ended up answering all of the questions that people had, which caused me to write as much in several different posts as I wrote in this one huge one. I was tired of answering all the zillions of asides and losing the possible help I might get if I put all the information in at once.

    Tires were put on
    Alignment was off and then supposed fixed at the same time
    Problem began
    Alignment was deemed to be off and was fixed and the pressure changed from 45 to 30 at the same time
    Problem continued
    Drove to Luscious, changed pressure and got new alignment, experienced an immediate increase inMPG
    Husband stll hates the car.
    I think the steering issue exists, but doesn't seem to me to be obviously dangerous. Maybe he's right and I'm wrong.
    I could not leave out the issue of alignment or the issue of pressure or the issue of new tires.
    These issues are ALL connected. I have spent months on this in some way or other (listening to complaints at a minimum.)

    Thanks everyone for your help. I will keep on pressing on. I do not believe that I should dump a car that initially worked perfectly and seems to have become junk, at least to my husband, merely because it received new tires.

    Don't read the questions if they are annoying. I am sorry, but I'm seriously worried that we are going to be forced to give up a perfectly good car, just because we have some sort of problem that nobody else can detect. I think my husband may be imagining this or exaggerating it, but it might instead be very dangerous. Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, this issue needs a solution, so I went out on a limb and retold the story, knowing people like you would be angry, but wishing that someone would finally get what it is that is wrong. I guess I blew it. I'm sorry.

    There is absolutely NO DOUBT that this started when we got new tires.
    There is absolutely NO DOUBT that we received at least two bad alignments
    There is a possibility we received three bad alignments.
    At each alignment, the tire pressure was drastically changed.

    I'm sorry, but these facts need to be kept together.
     
  14. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

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    It's I who am sorry if I gave the impression of being angry. No way, not me. I gave that up a long time ago, as it proves to be counterproductive.

    And no you didn't blow it. My advice was just to be like Joe Friday: "Just the facts, ma'am" for ease in future posts down the road.
     
  15. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    I'm sorry, but sometimes when you're trying to find answers you have to separate issues.
    I'm not casting doubt on anything you say has happened or you've done.
    But to solve a problem, you have to isolate the problem and the cause. That's why I say pick one issue, and fix that. Seems to me the steering issue is the most easily demonstrable, as well as potentially the most dangerous, therefore I'd focus on it. If while this is being fixed, something like the alignment is also addressed? Fine.

    But my guess is that some of these "facts", won't or don't have any connection to each other. Getting new tires, and even adjusting tire pressures, shouldn't have the impact in adverse behavior you are describing.

    Just as an outsider, reading on the internet when you start presenting 3, 4, 5 things you believe have happened, and then speculating as to the connection these factors might have in relationship to a definition presented as vaguely as "My husband hates the way it drives"....narrowing down both the problem and the cause becomes that much more difficult.

    The biggest most direct symptom you have is the steering behavior....it may or may not have anything to do with any of the other factors you present, such as bad alignments or new tires, but if I was searching for resolution, not just further angst and complication, the issue I would focus on with service technicians would indeed be the steering behavior.

    I would certainly make it known that the vehicle has had recent alignments and new tires put on it.
     
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  16. jendbbay

    jendbbay Member

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    I really appreciate your time and effort to help me. Its ust that the car was PERFECT and then they put tires on it and it was lousy and that's really the way it was. The things that played into it being lousy all happened at once tires, pressure, alignment. I get what you are saying and I want to make progress. I'll read this again in the morning. There's also my husband's perceptions.
     
  17. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Certainly, and good luck.

    I also admit, what I'm doing here is simply offering an opinion on approach and not a definitive answer. I wish you the best in finding that answer.

    Let us know how it goes.
     
  18. WeeDrgn

    WeeDrgn Junior Member

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    Great post. Lots of info and hard to isolate what info is necessary and what is not.

    Some ideas came to me as I was reading...
    1. do you have someone with a Prius willing to let you use their tires on your car for test drive? This should help tell if it is a tire issue or not.
    2. you can go to a used car dealer with a similar Prius for sale and test drive it to see if steering is dangerous, maybe?
    3. if there is someone for item 1. you could have that person drive your car and you theirs then compare notes.
    4. if all else fails - perform a spiritual cleansing/blessing. Get rid of those evil spirits...can't hurt.

    Overall, I love this BLOG but it sure shows me that this car (which I LOVE) is very different for the average driver with over 45 years experience...it is a different beast for sure.

    Good luck.
     
  19. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    My suggestions:

    1. Leave the tires as is for now.
    2. Incorrect alignment.
    3. I suggest you and your husband should go back to Luscious Garage with your car and explain your husband's perceptions to Carolyn, the owner - and see what happens. Make sure the car is unloaded and not full of camping equipment.
    4. Let's see what happens after #3.
     
  20. stevemcelroy

    stevemcelroy Active Member

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    I have to agree with the others. There are just too many moving parts for us to be of much help. It seems like you have a few issues to check out - tires, alignment, steering column, and lastly your hubby. It seems like you have addressed 2 of the 4 in the tires and alignment. Call your dealer and make sure that you have had the steering column recall taken care of. My guess is you have not as it is a fairly recent recall and you likely would remember.

    Then you and your husband need to figure out why he feels there is an issue and you do not. Obviously there is a disconnect. Could he be irrational about this- sure, could you be missing something- sure.

    As for the hit in mileage- that is possible with new tires, but it also sounds like you got a different type of tires. The mileage that you are getting is perhaps just the way it should be with those specific tires.

    Now I'll throw in one wildcard - the flat tire that started this all. You do not mention just what happened, but do say that the car needed to be towed to a repair shop. This leads me to believe that this was more than a routene flat - if it was the spare tire would have been put on and the car would have driven away. So, what happened during the incident that caused the flat?