I didn't know they would need some kind of approval. They have already had pure electrics on the road so it's odd they would have to wait.

At least it's good to see this moving forward. There are rumors they have some PHEV vehicles here in Peroria AZ that have been on the road testing. At least they appear to have an outlet on the back of a otherwise normal looking prius near the Toyota proving grounds.

Lets all pray the testing is good and we can join in the cleaner fun soon. I'd buy onje in a second from Toyota or any other maker at a 10K premium over the standard full hybrid.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jul 20 2007, 04:04 PM) [snapback]482444[/snapback]</div>

anyone know how much power these things will drain on the avg household because if it's like running the oven or whatever, then it's not really "greener" when you consider the increased amt of electricity it is drawing.

it may be cheaper for the end user but not overall good for the environment unless it doesnt use much juice..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GatorJoe @ Jul 20 2007, 04:13 PM) [snapback]482451[/snapback]</div>

In fact I do. My PHEV draws 4KW a day and that is about $.32 per day on my electric bill. Now this Plug-ins that Toyota is working on may use up to twice that much. When you convert it, it comes to an equivalent of about 2 cents per mile, or 75 cent per gallon of gas, depending on how you look at it. Now those are just estimates but they are good ones.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Jul 20 2007, 05:21 PM) [snapback]482457[/snapback]</div>

For some reason, the message that plug-in hybrids offer the equivalent of gas for less $1 a gallon just doesn't seem to get much political or consumer traction. Given the current oil-soaked political Administration, I can understand the lack of political traction. But for the car owning public, for some reason the media hasn't picked up on the financial benefits of plug-in hybrids. It seems like the general public associates ultra-fuel efficient vehicles (PHEV) with only the tree hugger sissy types that want to save a polar bear or two. Of course, the same group of Car owners that look upon the tree huggers with disdain, will complain in the next breath about the high cost of gas and just don't understand that a PHEV will offer the equivalent of 'cheap gas'.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(joe1347 @ Jul 20 2007, 06:13 PM) [snapback]482482[/snapback]</div>

Watch the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" (it is cited often on PC). I'm not typically a conspiracy-minded type, but they really make a case for how different factions worked to sway both the media and public opinion regarding electric cars. Much of which no doubt is a factor in some of the anti-hybrid sentiment that currently exists.

Anyone think politicians are going to run around scared passing new laws if these things hit the road in force? After all all that gasoline tax will soon go away! I know there was a lot of serious talk about a per-mile tax on cars as hybrids hit it big, now we want to conserve more and WAMMO! lets tax the consumer some other way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GeoDosch @ Jul 20 2007, 07:40 PM) [snapback]482528[/snapback]</div>

I agree. "Who Killed the Electric Car" is a must see for anyone who drives an automobile.
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/

I also highly recommend Sherry Boschert's book "Plug-In Hybrids: The Cars that will Recharge America".
http://www.sherryboschert.com/

Following the April '07 NY Auto Show, NPR's Science Friday did a piece on "Green Cars" which started with an interview with a GM executive on their introduction of the Chevy Volt concept PHEV. They then did a follow-up interview with Sherry Boschert and Dennis Semanaitis (Engineering Editor for Road & Track) to get their scoop on it. It's definitely worth checking out. You can download an mp3 of the program at the Science Friday website. (I've found the best way to do this is to right-mouse-click on the "mp3 download" link in the "Archived Audio" box at the upper right of the webpage, and then use the "Save Target As..." option)
http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2007/Ap...ur2_040607.html

There's an earlier thread on this:http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=36232&st=20



--des

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(joe1347 @ Jul 20 2007, 03:13 PM) [snapback]482482[/snapback]</div>

Check out the http://rechargeit.org for some real data on Google's burgeoning fleet of plug-in hybrids, as well as some really cool stuff on vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technology, which allows using the battery packs in hybrids to supply power to the grid during peak demand times.

FWIW, they're showing an average of 73.6mpg for the two cars currently in use.

Video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDjSbWTJbdo

While I agree that it is too bad that Prius's get their energy from gasoline, plug-in hybrids are not a solution to anything until we are getting our electricity from cleaner sources than coal and natural gas. When you plug in your car at home, you're creating more pollution than driving a hybrid car that gets all its energy from gasoline.

We need to get more nuclear power plants going, so that we're creating less pollution when generating electricity. At that point, plug-in hybrids and all-electric cars will make more sense.

It looks like getting enough nuclear power plants online will take quite a while, though, like at least 10 years, unless the approval and building process is accelerated from what it is now.

-Roger

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rogerSC @ Jul 22 2007, 08:40 PM) [snapback]483328[/snapback]</div>

Maybe we could buy a Nuke plant cheaply from Japan..........I think PV has alot of potential with plug in's.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rogerSC @ Jul 22 2007, 08:40 PM) [snapback]483328[/snapback]</div>

In reality, a practical car can have one, maybe two sources of its power. The huge advantage of powering a car off the electrical grid is that the electricity can be generated from any number of sources, including solar, hydro, wind, geothermal, tidal... there are many possibilities. And as new technologies are developed to generate clean electricity, the existing electric cars automatically take advantage of it.

Even with the fact that the bulk of our electricity comes from coal, there has also been great progress in that area, resulting in cleaner-burning coal plants. And as better generating equipment becomes available, it's more practical to upgrade a relatively small number of power plants than to try and target the millions of cars on the road. And how many of those cars are running at the well below peak of their efficiency, due to poor maintenance.

Another advantage is that the distribution system is already in place. With gasoline, the distribution system has been built and evolved over many, many years. Even if something like hydrogen becomes practical (which is unlikely in the near future), it will still take years to build enough hydrogen fueling stations to make it viable for the majority of drivers. And since most electric cars would be charging at night, when demand is low, the current infrastructure is capable of handling it. In fact, it's a big help for the electric grid, because dealing with the unused power at times of low demand is a problem, since you can't just turn off the generating stations like so many light switches.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(joe1347 @ Jul 20 2007, 05:13 PM) [snapback]482482[/snapback]</div>

Throughout this little adventure, I have always been honest. While the gas is cheaper after two years I will have to replace my second pack (With no adverse affect on my OEM battery). After I spend the money for the new pack and I add up how much I saved, I'll break about even on cost. The big winner for me is buying less foreign oil.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GeoDosch @ Jul 22 2007, 07:56 PM) [snapback]483334[/snapback]</div>

I buy only wind power from my electric service provider so I offset the gas I don't use with wind.

Also, to be fair here the infrastructure is not out there. When I asked if I could plug in at work they were excited. However now that I have finished my project they want me to use one of 28 plugs that are in the parking garage in down town Houston. Just two on each floor and each of the fourteen floors park about 200 cars.

I quickly warned my office that Plug-ins are coming and that they won't just have to deal with workers wanting to plug-in but soon their paying customers will too. Their faces almost turned white in horror. I was right. Soon every parking space where you would stay for a few hours or more like a gym, movie theater, ball park, office, or airport will need to become electrified on the customer’s side.

Who is going to pay for that bill? Oh I have no doubt it will happen, but don't think for a moment when these Plug-ins hit the road that they will have a place other then home to plug in.

Every now and then there is an event that changes the landscape. Back in 72/73 it was the oil embargo. For me it was a couple of the FL hurricanes shutdown a great many gas stations and disrupted the refineries.

There is going to something, I do not know what, that will speed up the move to a) PHEVs and to b ) EVs....Big Time. Do not know when and how, but I will find out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rogerSC @ Jul 22 2007, 06:40 PM) [snapback]483328[/snapback]</div>

Does that compare the cost of coal pollution vs the cost of refining and then combusting gasoline or does it just pit coal emission vs gasoline emissions? There's probably a lot of coal fired energy that goes into refining gasoline in an area that gets most of its electricity from coal.

Point source management is also loads easier as others have already pointed out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Jul 22 2007, 09:36 PM) [snapback]483347[/snapback]</div>

I don't believe pure plug-ins will be practical until they can be usable on an overnight charge, and not be expected to plug in every time the driver stops for an hour or more. Unfortunately, the battery technology is not there yet, though it's rapidly getting closer. However, a plug-in hybrid is a good bridge until then. It can run on pure electric at highway speeds for useful stretches, and still have gasoline (or diesel, LPG, etc.) to keep them going when their charge runs out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rogerSC @ Jul 22 2007, 08:40 PM) [snapback]483328[/snapback]</div>

You forgot Photo cells. There are folks right here on PC who power their own EV cars, as well as their homes, and feed power back onto the grid to boot! Why build 20 more nuke plants? You can get away with just a half dozen or so, and give big incentives to the sunny (and even moderately sunny) states to build their own self sustaining roof mounted solar panel stations. Put solar cells on parking garages, down the center of freeways, charge ports built into the parking meters, etc. Am I missing something?
Heck, I don't mind paying more road tax to Edison (in leiu of paying it to the Oilies) if it gets us of the mid east crack cocain addiction.

BTW, natural gas is VERY clean. Why do you think CNG cars / vans get to ride with solo stickers in the carpool lane?