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    austingreen Senior Member

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    Hybrids Top Japan

    Part of the reason are the tax incentives
    Japan extends tax breaks for green cars through to 2015 - 14 Dec 2011 - News from BusinessGreen
    This is on top of other incentives
    With Incentives, Japan Car Sector Is Spinning Tires - WSJ.com
    That gives a $3150 incentive to buy a new prius by january 2013.

    I know this news is out in various threads, but thought it should be on its own thread here.
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    hill High Fiber Member

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    Gee - Japan buys tons of hybrids . . . I wonder why . . . . .

    Gas prices in Tokyo - ritsuki.

    And yet our U.S. land barge crybabys can't take it when they have to throw down $120 to pump each week ... what do you want a bet the U.S. will get high ratios of hybrids once we start paying just $5 a gallon and more. It's just a matter of time. New oil field discoveries have decreased for the past half century ... yet people get all excited when even ONE new field discovery takes place ... as though that's going to make some kind of huge dent, as many of the 70 year old fields dry up, and demand continues to increase. Are we missing the boat? or what.

    .
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    austingreen Senior Member

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    certainly part of the explanation is high gas prices, but that is overly simplistic. Following that line of reasoning, we would expect europe to have a higher percentage of its fleet as hybrids, but it has many fewer than the US. Part of it must be those government incentives that coincided with japan buying more hybrids than the US. Anouther part is cultural.

    Japanese drive much less than people in america. At these prices it probably costs an american family much more in gasoline than a japanese family. My buddy in tokyo has a CR-V and spends much more a month on parking than gas. He shares the car with his wife. Public transportation is good, so they use the car for large shopping trips or to take their daughter to visit her grandparents. Most daily shopping is done on foot.
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    Keiichi Active Member

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    Well, you also have to remember, the per square foot in Japan is literally expensive over in Japan. Let me put up two pictures for you here:
    [IMG] [IMG]

    So this is a 'close' land comparison... You will note, the US, just those 9 out of 50 states is more square foot than Japan.

    Japan's real estate is crazy expensive in the cities, and car ownership, especially in the city, requires that you have an actual place to park your car in order to own a car, I believe. While you see pictures of cars and such in Japan as well as highways and them having open space, don't forget even on that map size we don't nearly occupy as much land, but also, Japan has mountainous terrain and their own agriculture to help sustain their population.
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    spwolf Senior Member

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    it is not just hybrid cars that get the cuts, most of new cars do... very similar to cash for clunkers program.

    but i think price cut is smaller, maybe they used Leaf which costs more, but i think for Prius gets something like 1.1k in tax cuts (it is one of the 10 toyota cars that get 100% cuts, and 20 others get 75%).
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    spwolf Senior Member

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    austingreen Senior Member

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    I included both. The hybrid/electric tax cut is the larger 150,000 yen - about $1800 today. The cash for clunkers is the smaller subsidy. Both combine to over $3000 off a new prius. If you look back at my OP the WSJ was talking about the cash for clunkers discount that is for any efficient car. It is robbing peter to pay paul, juicing sales through january 2013, but after that things may drop. The hybrid/electric tax cut is more firm, and in place through 2015. That means hybrids will stay a high proportion, but sales of japanese cars are likely to drop in 2013 unless the government puts the program in place again.
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    wjtracy Senior Member

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    In general the Japanese incentives seem to be more sensible: moderate $$ and more evenly spread to hybrids and EV. When USA had the hybrid credit, it was crafted to make sure not too many credits went to Prius owners. Now you could argue in USA it would be better to give some credit to hybrids instead of just mega-credits to EV's.
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    spwolf Senior Member

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    did you even follow the link i posted? tax cut is not only for hybrids, and no, it is not that much. It depends on the price of the car itself (tax is % based - 5%, so it is 5% off). With Prius it is 110,000 yen and with Aqua it is actually less - 90,000 yen. I think they quoted Leaf price, which is probably a lot more expensive than Prius.

    Non Hybrids like Corolla, Yaris, iQ (21 Toyota in total) get 75% reduction in tax, so difference between tax cut in Corolla and Prius are $300.

    But people chose Prius and other hybrids because of expensive gas prices and the very fact that Prius is the most popular car sold in Japan, even without incentives.

    So in reality if we analyze Japanese sales, hybrids did not get specific boost from the incentives... incentives were made to stimulate all cars and all manufacturers.

    Main reason hybrids are at the front is that gas is $7-$7.5/gallon in Japan.
    And I bet if it was same in USA, then monthly sales top 10 list would look very different.

    To summarize - demand for hybrids can most efficiently be created by increasing gas prices :)
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    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    Europe:
    Less driving.
    Lower incomes.
    Drive stick.
    Smaller engines.
    Cheaper diesels.

    When I mentioned my Prius to my dad (UK) his reaction was "It's not worth it here". He drives a Nissan subcompact with a 1.2L engine.

    But we'll see how the Yaris Hybrid does. It's the same price as a Polo BlueMotion.
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    spwolf Senior Member

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    also higher taxes and higher prices of cars leading to Prius being expensive car... Yaris could be a game changer, it will probably increase Toyota Hybrid sales by 50% in Europe next year, to a better 120k/year, probably even more.

    Main problem in Europe is that Toyota is not big player there...
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    spwolf Senior Member

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    If you look at percentages, Toyota sold 10% Hybrids in Europe last year, actually more than in US, right? Or at least equal. Difference in numbers is just the difference in standing of Toyota in US and in Europe.

    To sell more hybrids, Yaris will help, Prius+ will help, but also Rav4 and Avensis will help. With Rav4 launching next year, they could sell 150k hybrids in 2013, in Europe. Which are good numbers.
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    austingreen Senior Member

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    Why, yes I did click your link, and glanced at it. Since it was in japanese, and my japanese is not good, I chose to respond to your text. Your correction to my post was clearly wrong. There are multiple subsidies and tax breaks, and I was pointing out that your lower figure does not include them all.

    If your correction is that the acquisition and weight tax break for the prius is 110,000 yen instead of 150,000 that does add to the discussion, but still an english language source would be better. This is not the only tax subsidy the other one is also over 100,000 yen.

    I doubt the corolla gets 75% of the tax breaks and subsidiies of the prius in japan. That just sounds crazy high. Do you have a source, in english, that actually includes the subsidies from all the programs? If the japanese government is giving every one that trades in for a corolla $2000, that seems like an obscene waste of money.
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    austingreen Senior Member

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    +1
    Seems like a good list. I'd add lower taxes on diesel versus gasoline.

    lol. I thought the big problem in europe was the financial crisis. Far down the list might be diesel fumes. I doubt anyone will say if only Toyota sold more cars our problems would be all solved.:D

    Its falacious reasoning. All of the tesla cars sold in europe are all electric, so the diesel pollution problem would be solved if only everyone would buy a tesla. Toyotas don't sell as well in europe, because fewer people want toyota cars:) If everyone wanted hybrds in europe then toyota would sell more. Stating it the other way doesn't make much senase.
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    austingreen Senior Member

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    You need to crunch the numbers, but the Japanese program is much more expensive that the US plan since it covers so many more cars. Other taxes likely offset these, but we don't pay these taxes in the US.

    There are many differences in taxes that favor hybrids in japan. The much higher gas tax every one understands. There is also a weight tax and an engine size tax, as well as shaken - inspection and repair that goes up in cost as cars get older. All these taxes bias the market towards newer cars and those that are hybrid or with smaller engines. The acquisition tax (like our sales tax) one of the things that peanalizes people buying new or used cars. Most of these other than the gas tax and shaken are waved for hybrids through 2015.
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    sandrajolly New Member

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    I really think that Japanese cars are the best to gives the good average.
    Hybrids car help the environment by using less fuel.Since an electric car runs off a battery charged from electricity rather than fuel from an internal combustion engine, it produces far less pollution than a conventional car as electric plants can more efficiently produce energy than internal combustion engines..
    May be that is the reason,Japanese cars sale led high......... :D
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    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Totally agree with you on that. The current US plugin tax credit encourages the development of battery "tanks". The bigger the battery, the more incentive it'll get, regardless of emission, efficiency or total gallons displaced.

    We'll have Coda EV rated 73 MPGe getting $7,500 while 95 MPGe Prius PHV getting $2,500. Fisker Karma with 20 MPG gas engine also getting $7,500 while Prius PHV with 50 MPG gas engine getting $2,500. :mad:
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    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    My sense is that the average European abhors a CVT.
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    spwolf Senior Member

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    i dont know who are you responding to as i never mention pollution caused by diesel fumes. I dont think i ever mentioned that on Priuschat, it might be someone else?

    However now that you mentioned it, it is definitively reason more people will buy hybrids in the future, as now in Germany and some other countries, you cant enter the city center anymore with a diesel and you can with clean hybrids :).

    But it is not something i would mention as I live in Eastern Europe, and here they will probably tax the hybrids MORE because they spend less fuel. Seriously. :p

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