From Journo experiences Volt's electric-to-hybrid transition, says it needs improvement — Autoblog Green, a NY Times reporter recently got to drive a Volt in charge sustaining mode. See The New York Times > Log In.
I'm so weary of hearing about the Volt- why is it taking GM SOOOOOOO long to come out with this vehicle? Sometimes I feel like it's just hoopla and the production car will never see the light of day.
I guess my previous assertion was right. As I stated before, The big slow down in the volt timetable is probably the ICE. The ICE will be the roughest part of the Volt. Can you imagine how the ICE will sound to someone that has stayed within its 40 mile EV range for months and decides to take a long trip? It will probably terrify them and having an ICE sit for that long will probably run very rough. I hope GM get's the kinks worked out... This does make me wonder about the Karma Fisher that is supposed to launch in 2010....
GM is stuck on how to promote Volt. It's a design that depends heavily upon a significant drop in battery cost, leaving them with nothing competitive to sell in large volume in the meantime (many years). They also have a post-bankruptcy image to be concerned about. They'd like to focus on the EV abilities, having you think of the engine as a emergency device rather than something used sparingly from time to time. That forms a mindset of being more advanced than the competition, even though the efficiency difference between that and a motor powered PSD with the engine stopped has yet to actually be quantified. CS (Charge-Sustaining) mode has become a PR problem. Knowing how efficient the engine is while generating electricity to propel the vehicle remains a big mystery, despite so many asking about it. The fact that its operation still needs refining at the validation-build stage makes it even more of a touchy subject. With an entire year to go before the select-market Volt rollout begins and Toyota advancing with their plug-in rollout, it is anyone's guess how this plays out. People want something to actually purchase, not just observational reviews. .
With Toyota rolling out the PHEV Prius on a limited basis in the near future, there will have a good year of real driving by a variety of users in its research databanks before the Volt gets ready to debut.
GM does have the volt mules out there now. If GM is actually having the mules run in charge sustaining mode as well as ev mode, then gm will be on equal footing with toyota in regards to data collected. I am not particularly impressed with toyota's PHEV program. 5 miles on EV... seriously, which I do remember reading that it was supposed to be 12 miles, is a joke. The price of the toyota's PHEV will be less, but the same argument could be made with the prius vs a non hybrid that is cheaper... so that argument is moot. *edit* as john1701a stated it's anyones game for the next round. Toyota could be taking the slow approach and not get the expectations up for their PHEV and suddenly announce something that could blow the volt away. I also have a fear that GM may pull a "GM" and offer a substandard quality car that does not perform up to the expectations set by GM. I really and truly feel like that 230 mpg campaign will come back to haunt them.
That 5 mile EV range will get me to the shops and back or to the top of my 2 kilometre descent onto the Adelaide Plain from my house. But when I can buy an Enginer conversion with 40 miles semi EV range for under $3000 why get a new plug in Prius or a Volt?
Do you know where the "5 mile" claim came from? 20 km has been the target, but even then the aspect of range was based upon the lack of any other capacity measure. Consumers don't understand kWh. Plugging in a Prius provides a significant efficiency BOOST. The upgrade is best depicted in terms of MPG improvement, not range. The joke twist comes from greenwashing, attempts to make the technology look inferior rather than acknowledging the cost & volume business opportunity. .
The GM marketing / noisy transition quandary is in part due to status quo / same ol same ol / good ol' boys that are still running GM (into the ground). They were finally getting rid of Lutz ... then they rehire him: G.M. Brings Back ‘Mr. Horsepower’ - Wheels Blog - NYTimes.com GM is stuck with these leadership knobs that think the public wants a car that'll out handle anything ... burn rubber pulling a 5th wheel trailer ... and yet be emission free. There's a reason dinosaurs go away ... but not at GM. The volt may work someday in spite of Lutz and his fellow knuckleheads, but it'll take a miracle. .
The 5 mile range I read about was on autobloggreen, which I remember reading on that site previously that toyota is shooting for 12 miles with the test fleet they had in japan. I understand that the efficiency gains of the phev prius, but lets be real, for the money the volt is providing an ev with range extender while toyota's PHEV prius is a Hybrid with mild ev range. If a person wanted to "never" visit a gas station again, I would see that being more feisible with the Volt than with Prius. I truly believe in a gas-less future and the Volt fits that need for more people than the phev prius. There are plenty of people that do have short commutes, but there seem to be more people with longer commutes (here in the USA).
Be real? Ok. For the money, the volt is providing nothing ... nothing but PR. Yes, maybe someday. I hope so. But now? Nothing, unless you count a land barge Caddy SUV that gets what ... maybe 19mpg if you're lucky? Talk about missing the boat. Meanwhile, GM & Toyota have differences in marketing philosophies. GM likes to blow their horn for YEARS ... then never deliver. For Example? wasting hundreds of millions on hydrogen cars ... for DECADES, that they knew darn well, would never be delivered. Then there was the EV1 that they spent hundreds of millions on ... then CRUSHED. And now? Hybrids. You want to know how long GM's been stringing the public along with hybrids? How does 4 decades grab you - from boys life 1969: Meanwhile, Toyota keeps their cards close to their chest ... not boasting to everyone what they're doing. The just DO. Most here wouldn't be surprised in the least if the PHEV prius (with even LONGER range) hits the streets well in advance of anything from GM. GM LOVES to brag via commercial how 'green' they are. Yet even as the GM/green ads run, we the taxpayers will be reeling for decades, trying to clean up the toxic sites they abandoned via bankruptcy: New GM Shirks Responsibility for Old Toxic Dumps and Mercury Disposal | Hybrid Cars Why their corporate goons are not in jail is beyond me. But again, tempered with hope, with luck, the Volt may yet come about. .
I share your distain for GM as a whole. I think the concept of the volt is far more flexible and meets the needs of more people that can function as a true EV for a range large enough for the commuting public. It is yet to be seen if GM will deliver on their promises (with gm's track record it's huge NO). I hope GM will finally and I mean finally be "ahead of their time" instead of always behind it. If GM does make good on their promise where does that leave toyota? with a car with 5-12 mile ev range.... that would be a PR nightmare for Toyota to be bested at being "green" and by a US car company at that. I don't see the price of the PHEV Prius being the same as the current Prius. I am guestimating a 2k premium for the PHEV (if Toyota doesn't package the PHEV version with extras) At this point, GM needs to be wise about over promising and not delivering on what they promised. I am still skeptical of what GM will do with the volt. I am watching the Fisker Karma closely as to see what happens there (the Fisker Karma has a very similiar set up as the volt except with a 50 mile ev range and a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder).
On the referenced page Toyota didn't make any claims. The 5 miles came from the author. Toyota generally doesn't speculate or promise. They will drop a phev or whatever the next upgrade is when the next competitor comes to market.The only way to never visit a gas station is to buy an ev. The Volt isn't an ev and I suspect will be designed to burn gas regardless of how it's driven.
GM's track record has improved greatly, the newer cars and trucks are in line with the imports, the problem is the people cannot get the 80s and mid/late 90s out of there head. MANY if not all of the new GM releases are damn close to what the concept was in terms of design and function, the new Camaro for example, it has a few things that were not delivered or delayed due to tech or supply issues. but the car is in demand equal to the prius, and gets up to 29mpg with 304hp in the v6 . there was a few launch issues, but people who own them (and wrecked them have came out in great shape) and if anyone didnt notice GM is outselling toyota for most of 2009 btw i am not hating on toyota here, (even though i really dislike them) i am just defending my tax dollars and what i believe the maker of some of the best cars out there
GM takes FIFTY BILLION dollars, refuses to clean up it's own toxic dumps, and as an alternative to a Prius -- offers the Malibu hybrid. I'll take my taxpayer dollars back, if it's all the same to you.
While it is true GM produces much better products than they did in the 80s and 90s, here is the problem. A car for most of us is the 2nd most expensive purchase we will make, and it is not something we take lightly. Until Honda and Toyota let us down, or GM produces something "I have to have", there is really little reason to give GM a try. I was hoping my Honda would last until the Volt was available so I could consider it, but my Honda died after 20.5 years early this year and the Volt is nowhere near the showroom yet so I now drive a 2010 Prius.
Yep, their track record has improved but most of what you're saying it spoken like a true GM fanboy who has their blinders on. Released models being close to the concept has nothing to do w/how good/bad their cars are. The current Volt looks nothing like the earlier concepts and the price tag estimates are FAR beyond what their earlier claims. Does that it mean it's automatically crap? Uhh, regarding "outselling Toyota for most of 2009", is that supposed to be an accomplishment? In the recent past, the "Big 3": GM, Ford and Chrysler always had the top 3 spots in US auto sales, every month. That's not true anymore. Now it's usually GM, Toyota, Ford, in that order. GM for decades was the largest automaker in the world in terms of units sold, only to be overtaken by Toyota briefly and now VW. GM's share was almost 50% at its peak and now is hovering around 19%. (http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/04/news/companies/gm_share/ and http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/10...are-ground-in-october-edmundscom-reports.html). "Best" in my mind includes reliability. My parents have been burned by GM in the past (had 3 of their crappy products) and don't buy from them anymore. Take a look at some choice quotes from Car reliability, most reliable cars "Following its bankruptcy filing and shedding the Hummer, Pontiac, and Saturn brands, GM now consists of Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, and GMC. Of the 48 models we surveyed from those brands, 20 had average scores, and only one, the Malibu V6 sedan, was better than average." "The major Japanese brands and South Korea's Hyundai and Kia make plenty of reliable vehicles. Of the 48 models with top reliability scores, 36 were Asian. Toyota accounted for 18; Honda, eight; Nissan, four; and Hyundai/Kia and Subaru, three each." If you look at Consumer Reports reliability ratings for Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, you'll find that the majority of them have better than average reliability. BTW, it's funny that you mention the Camaro. See posts 45 and 58 of http://my350z.com/forum/other-vehicles/436763-not-a-good-sign-for-gm-and-the-camaro-3.html. It's now been almost 12 years since the Prius came out (in Japan first). Where's GM's answer to it? What do they sell in the US that's competitive with it in terms of fuel economy, emissions, technology and reliability? They instead come out w/weak engineering efforts like the BAS mild hybrids like the Malibu Hybrid only to discontinue them or bloated, expensive (~$50K+) monstrosity class two-mode hybrids that deliver ~20-22 mpg combined. None of these sell in any large quantities.
Compared to the other FACTORY electric offerings the Volt is going to be a bargain. At $39,000 (after government money) its 40 mile range with batteries included will beat out Nissan (on price) and Toyota (on range). Of course GM could pull the rug out from the Volt in the end by either upping its price or reducing its range. I don't think either of those will happen as most of the testing they have done backs up the ability to deliver those specifications and they seem to be willing to loose $ selling the Volt initially. To me the most bang for the buck will come from the non factory option... A Prius with a third party PHEV kit. A $25000 2010 Prius plus a $8000 (or less) is looking more and more like the route I will take.
TOYOTA: News Releases > TMC to Display Prius Plug-in Concept at Frankfurt Show EV cruising range is approx. 20 km (target). Ken@Japan
If you count Tesla as a 'factory electric', their model S will deliver 100 mile range for $50k. So yes, 25% more expensive, but a 150% increase in range. Not sure about beating Nissan in price. I haven't hear the cost yet for the car plus the lease price for the batteries. The problem I have with the PHEV conversions for the Prius is they don't (at least the ones I am aware of) give you an all EV mode. You are still using gasoline most of the time (although much less). It is a great option now, but in a year or two when other options start comming out, I definately want an all EV car.
