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JP Government Bets the Farm on Fuel Cell Cars

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Troy Heagy, Jun 2, 2014.

  1. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Perhaps this is why Toyota is saying "no" to battery-EVs and pushing Fuel Cell cars:

    "...the Japanese government[​IMG] plans to become the frontrunner in promoting development and sales of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, and it's going to achieve that goal in two ways:
    • By changing guidelines for fuel cell vehicles: By the end of the month, Japan's Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry will loosen regulations on fuel cell vehicles. Soon, FCV owners will be able to fill their hydrogen tanks to 875 atmospheres, substantially higher than the 700 atmospheres allowed under current law. The boost in capacity will allow fuel cell vehicles to travel 20 percent farther than they currently do.
    • By facilitating exports (and imports): Japan's government is hammering out details on new treaties that would make it easier for fuel cell vehicles to be imported from makers like Mercedes, but also exported from Japan to Europe and elsewhere. In particular, Japan is working to broker a deal by which countries would recognize safety tests performed in other countries, simplifying the process to get FCVs on the road.
    LINK: Japanese Government Bets The Farm On Fuel Cell Vehicles
    Honda Insight fuel cell:
    [​IMG]
     
    #1 Troy Heagy, Jun 2, 2014
  2. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    #2 Troy Heagy, Jun 2, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2014
  3. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...the article does not really explain why Japan gov't is stong on FCV: (1) just to build FCV cars for export? or (2) because Japan sees FCV as important in Japan...if the latter, I do not understand why H2 is better than NG or gaso in Japan's case
     
    #3 wjtracy, Jun 2, 2014
    bwilson4web likes this.
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Mercedes has the f-cell out for lease. GM still has some fuel cell vehicles in the wild, but I believe these are given to test, and not leased.
    B-Class F-CELL Electric Car - Fuel Cell Technology | Mercedes-Benz
    note the f-cell is lease only, and now you can only lease a used car, they aren't making new ones.

    Mercedes far from basing bevs to promote its f-cell is bragging about tesla inside its
    2014 B-Class Electric Drive Car - Zero Emission Driving | Mercedes-Benz
     
    #4 austingreen, Jun 2, 2014
  5. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    1) It does indeed appear that much of METIs support of fuel cell is the possibility to export them to provide for japanese jobs. I don't understand why the US taxpayer would help the japanese government in that goal. That would mean the California government favors japanese jobs (or Korean) over american ones.

    2) Why are fuel cell vehicles "better" for japan than natural gas vehicles? I doubt that they have even tried to do that calculation. My guess is they really will use coal to hydrogen + electrolysis. That may be cleaper than the oil they import, but it requires they turn most of the nukes back on.
     
    #5 austingreen, Jun 2, 2014
  6. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...right, and Japan support of fuel cells probably pre-dates Fukushima disaster so it makes some sense that electrolysis from nuke power was in the back of their mind
     
    #6 wjtracy, Jun 2, 2014
  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    #7 fuzzy1, Jun 2, 2014
  8. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    "Pretty much everyone who took high-school science knows that getting hydrogen from water through electrolysis is inefficient. You run electricity through water and capture the hydrogen that bubbles up. But it takes a pile of electricity to get any reasonably useful amounts of hydrogen to do that.

    "Honda says that using steam re-formation of natural gas (methane) is much more efficient than electrolysis and that you can even do it at a home station, thus adding to the efficiency.

    "That's true, but if you're going to use all of that electricity to make hydrogen, why not cut out the added hoop and simply charge a battery? It's the same with steam re-formation of natural gas: Why not just put the natural gas straight into an NGV such as Honda's own Civic GX? There's even a home-fueling system available. It would make for one of the cleanest vehicles ever to drive down the San Diego Freeway."

    Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090501/carreviews/905019985#ixzz33WtOMAoc
     
    #8 Troy Heagy, Jun 2, 2014
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    #9 austingreen, Jun 2, 2014
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Some other old data might also be directing their thinking. The MITI LEV program that lead to the development of the Prius and other hybrids also supported BEVs. They sold real poorly in comparison to the hybrids. The range and cost probably wasn't real appealing. Of course, it was the late 1990s and the BEVs may have had only lead acid batteries. perhaps they got NiMH later, but BEVs have been deemed inpratical because of the results from that program.
     
    #10 Trollbait, Jun 3, 2014
  11. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Calfiornia gets their hydrogen from reformation of natural gas. So basically a fuel cell car is a natural gas car.

    And oil companies sell natural gas.

    I think I see who has hijacked the Japanese and California governments & told their politician slaves to start pushing for Natural Gas Cell cars. It appears the environmentalist/liberal leaders are just as "corporatist" as the GOP..... aka fascist. (The marriage of government & corporate power.)
     
    #11 Troy Heagy, Jun 3, 2014
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    If you remember big oil threatened to sue carb, they don't want to be in the hydrogen business.

    In california hydrogen will be mostly made from steam reformation of natural gas. but some is made from electrolysis of water. Some is driven to the station in diesel trucks. All gets pumped and compressed with electricity.

    One thing you will aways notice in slides about fuel cells. Pollutants are never counted in electricity when associated with hydrogen fueling, while pollutants in generation of electricity are often exagerated when comparing with plug-in vehicles.

    I think I see who has hijacked the Japanese and California governments & told their politician slaves to start pushing for Natural Gas Cell cars. It appears the environmentalist/liberal leaders are just as "corporatist" as the GOP..... aka fascist. (The marriage of government & corporate power.)[/QUOTE]
     
    #12 austingreen, Jun 3, 2014
  13. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Maybe but what about the natural gas business? Which can be reformed into hydrogen at the citizen's home, or at a station? I'd like to see that citation about big oil suing CARB over fuel cell cars.
     
    #13 Troy Heagy, Jun 4, 2014
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