I hope you get a response!

I saw another article yesterday (saw your good post on the news site as well) where they were comparing the Prius to a Chevy Aveo. And then calling the Aveo the best value in America.

My only regret is that I didn't get a better deal. I bought my car at the peak of demand and paid MSRP. I'm sure if I waited a month or 2 I would have gotten it below that.

Other than that I LOVE my prius.

Boston, eh? Isn't that where they used to BURN people?

Uh, breakeven? Compared to what. Maybe the Boston rag, being the knowers of all wisdon could also include the breakeven on a:

Corvette
4x4 dualie quad cab never taken off road or rear seat used
Harley
Porsche
Escalade
Jessie James Chopper
Ferarri

Need i continue? what kind of duffus lives in this kind of reality, that they see ANY car as having a payback or breakeven point. (shaking head) Every so often, these folks will raise their ignorant heads, and need to be gently reminded of certain realities.

One small point. Erin is generally a female name, Aaron is a male name, from my experience.

Some duffus (sp?) who needs to write an article and wants to generate a headline.

I'm trying to figure out the breakeven point on the motorhome that my GF bought last summer. Are we there yet? :madgrin:

Bob,

First I'm not sure why you're all worked up about this article. It was quite positive as all the (4) owners interviewed were happy with their cars and had no regrets about purchasing a Prius.

However, if you are going to lampoon the author on technicalities you should at least get it right. The EPA does not classify the Prius as a "Family Sedan". While they list market size so that one can compare the fuel economy of cars that are generally compared in publications like Consumer Reports, this is not the official EPA classification. If you look below "Market Size" you will see "EPA Size Class". That is the official EPA class and the Prius is a Mid-size car.

Your list also doesn't include the obvious cars to compare the Prius too; Toyota Camry I4 and Toyota Matrix. The Matrix in particular is an excellent comparison as they are both 4 door hatchbacks and are almost identical in interior size.

Prius: ----- 96 passenger / 16 cargo / 112 Total interior volume
Matrix: --- 92 passenger / 20 cargo / 112 Total interior volume

• The standard Matrix is $4900 less than the Standard Prius and is similarly equipped.
• The Matrix S is $3,725 less than a Base Prius and again is similarly equipped.

So the Prius does carry a $4,000 premium over a very similar Toyota car.

. . . . therein lies the irony ... the misleading skew. Go to most any autoblog web page and see how the Malibu is touted as mid sized ~ yet the prius is roomier. That's the great thing about the folks that fling out the 'facts' about cars. You get to pick and choose the ones yoiu want.

$4,000 premium? Which is only "paid back" in what, fuel costs? ... or also in smog ratings ... or resale ... or safty standards ... or 'looks' ... or ? What a slippery slope.


.

Many tend to disagree, placing value on the digital speedo, multi-display, and aluminum rims... all standard on Prius.

Value is never given to the ultra-smooth feel of the hybrid or the silence.

Have you ever compared a Corolla and a Prius side-by-side? The engine in Prius is quite a bit more refined. The difference is surprising.
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With stellar reporting like this no wonder newspapers are folding. Maybe the Boston Globe could send Erin to Israel to determine the payback of a Blackhawk compared to a Cobra. If a trip to the Middle East isn't in the budget then maybe she could be sent to California to investigate the payback of a Tesla to her "comparably equipped car".

Am I a bit strange?
When i went car shopping I had an amount I was willing to spend in mind, I got a used Prius for $25,000 instead of a new Corolla for $25,000. So when do I start to see a payback?
When I take delivery I didn't get the massive depreciation one gets with a new car.
At my second fill up which took twice as many kilometres to come due.
Every day I have toys to play with and a video game to play.
Every time I take my friends or family, they enjoy the extra leg room.
When I sell or trade, I need to fork out less cash for my next car.
This break even crap has never washed with me, if it was all about break even wouldn't the base Prius be the only one selling?

Primarily because the "$4,000" difference is not within the group of what are called "full size sedans."

Your browser must work differently than mine. I started with "Advanced Search" and it has no "official EPA classification" option. Under the "Market Class," I find options for:

• Small Cars
• Family Sedans
• Pickup Trucks
• Large Sedans
• Upscale Sedans
• Luxury Sedans
• Sport Utility Vehicles
• Hatchbacks
• Coupes
• Minivans
• Convertables
• Sports/Sporty Cars
• Vans
• Station Wagons

Since I had the Consumer Reports prices for "Family Sedans," I used the same classification from the EPA site to make sure the Consumer Reports list was at least a sub-set of such sedans.

The Consumer Reports list of cars, 39 I believe, is a subset of the EPA list of 74 "Family Sedans." I didn't make either list but copied them from their sources:

• Consumer Reports - fee based web site report
• www.fueleconomy.gov - open web site listing "Family Sedans"

I would if the Honda Matrix were even in the EPA web site or even the Consumer Reports lists. I checked both 2009 and 2008 and can not find the Matrix in either year.

Which one in the "Family Sedan" list? My eyes are tried but I can't see it.

Now within the list of "Family Sedans," we find the price range extremes and the Prius Touring are:

• $31,995 - 26 MPG - Nissan Altima V6
• $24,803 - 46 MPG - Toyota Prius Touring
• $22,052 - 46 MPG - Toyota Prius Base
• $20,342 - 23 MPG - Mitsubishi Galant 4-cyl.

Now we can do the math because we are comparing vehicles within "Family Sedans." To simplify the math, we'll use 15,000 miles per year and the amazing gasoline price of $1.50/gal.:

Nissan Altima V6 vs Mitsubishi Galant 4-cyl
$31,995 - $20,342 = $11,653 "best of family sedans"
15,000 / 26 MPG = 576.9 gal "best of family sedans"
75.3 gallons / year -> $112.95 / yr savings
103.2 years to gas break-even

Toyota Prius Touring vs Mitsubishi Galant 4-cyl
$24,803 - $20,342 = $4,461 "most expensive Prius"
15,000 / 46 MPG = 326.1 gal "most expensive Prius"
326.1 gallons / year -> $489.15 / yr savings
9.1 years to gas break-even

Toyota Prius Base vs Mitsubishi Galant 4-cyl
$22,052 - $20,342 = $1,710 "basic Prius"
15,000 / 46 MPG = 326.1 gal "basic Prius"
326.1 gallons / year -> $489.15 / yr savings
3.5 years to gas break-even

Mistusbish Galant 4-cyl
15,000 / 23 MPG = 652.2 gal "least expensive Family Sedan"

Unlike other comparisons, these are all within the same group, "Family Sedans" using both the EPA and Consumer Reports sources. I just can't find the Honda Matrix in the EPA data for either 2008 or 2009. Maybe next year. <grins>

Bob Wilson

Bob,

Umm... Er... Ah... the Matrix is a Toyota...

This small matter shouldn't undermine your evaluation.

Bob,

Go to Fuel Economy
Click "Find Cars"
Click "Search by Class"
Click "EPA Size Class" (It is the option below "Market Class")

The EPA classes the Prius as "Mid-size"
The EPA classes the Matrix as "Small Station Wagon"

As I pointed out the Matrix and the Prius have identical EPA interior volume. These cars are both made by Toyota, are the same size, with the same number of doors, and are both hatchbacks. To me, that makes the Matrix the ideal ICE comparison to the hybrid Prius. The Matrix is ~ $4,000 less than the Prius.

Your list from Consumer Reports is only the vehicles that they have tested. It doesn't even include the Toyota Camry 4-cylinder. ($2,000 less than the Prius and larger)


As others have said, "similarly equipped" means different things to different people. It is impossible to identically equip the vehicle because some features are not offered on one or the other. For example, the Matix comes standard with a tilt and telescoping steering wheel and height adjustable seat, features which are not available on any trim level of Prius. Some may like the Prius because it has more rear legroom and others prefer the Matrix because it has more cargo room. etc, etc, etc.

EDIT: If you go to Toyota.com you can compare vehicles. The second line on their comparison chart is "Comparably Equipped". The Prius and Matrix comparably equipped by Toyota are $22,720 and $17,820 respectively. That is a difference of $4,900.

Maybe comparable to some . . . not to me ... not for the things that are important to most.

Ah, I see it now. Starting with the link under "FIND AND COMPARE CARS..." gives a different search than "NEW! Advanced Search". It is "NEW! Advanced Search" that only lists "Market Class" as an option. But I still have to keep the same "Family Sedan" lists.

I noticed the problem with "Mid-size" is it includes some real dogs not in the Consumer Reports list. I really needed to compare like-to-like groups. The "Family Sedans" between both sources are similar. The "Mid-size" is significantly different.

Ahhhh, I didn't realize the Matrix was a Toyota! I kept looking under Honda. I see it now.

I have no problem with your list but when dealing with newpaper folks, having a credible source such as "Consumer Reports" or "www.fueleconomy.gov", we have standing. It is hard to cite as a source:

As "jhinton" of PriusChat.com points out the Matrix is ...

They need what is acceptable as a credible source.

Correct since I was using a well known, credible source.

Actually that is exactly the type of assignment I'd like to see the editor assign this reporter. In short, send them off to do a fully researched article. However, I don't see how they can fit a "station wagon" into the "family sedan" without being a little too creative. They are no longer reporting but expressing their opinion.

Thanks on that tip about the EPA web site. Apparently the two separate search links go to different pages. I honestly didn't realize the Matrix was Toyota. Somehow I thought it was a Honda product.

Bob Wilson

Don't you love how they are once again pushing the belief that the price of gas will never rise during the lifetime of the vehicle?

That was totally unrealistic back when the first rise to $2 per gallon began. They should know better. The stalled economy will recover. Paying more than $1.66 at the pump is inevitable.

Who regrets what?

It's the same nonsense from years ago. Geez! I had no idea the repetition of history would be so thorough.
.

We've been meaning to chat with you about that . . .

It was dishonest from day one:

• ignore buyer's real requirements - the analysis assumes the cheapest fuel cost was the only requirement
• 'sandbagged' the econo-box - they would leave out air conditioners which folks in hot climates need; use a "manual" transmission ignoring the actual distribution of automatics in the fleet; smaller interior space; worse safety; and as Consumer Reports owner satisfaction, a dingo-dung car.
• everyone drives 13,000 miles per year - they would use a smaller average while neglecting the fact that at least half drove more miles per year than the average. This considerably shortens the 'break-even' point.
• hybrids aren't driven as much as 'real cars' - this CNW Marketing nonsense claimed hybrid cars are left in the driveway EVEN IF THE SAME MAKE AND BODY STYLE IS OWNED. You have to believe the owner of a Camry Hybrid and Camry 4-cylinder would take the Camry 4-cylinder instead of the hybrid ... because they like to buy gas?

Now we have a powerful hammer, the "Family sedan" or sets of USA government recognized groups of cars. This instantly tosses out all of the dingo-dung or roo-scat vehicles. It doesn't solve all of the problems but it sure makes such fake studies less credible.

Bob Wilson

I'm just glad gas is so cheap. I've been driving my SUV (CRV) just because there was a lower payback from me driving my Prius when gas is so low (just kidding).

The low gas prices will let GM and the likes can continue to live for a few more weeks selling the SUVs with their great payback.

Also, this will give time to GMAC to try to unload all those SUV at 0% interest to those that really cannot afford it. Sound familiar to the housing mess? What is there going t be a SUV bubble burst soon too?

Then when GMAC folds, the we tax paying citizens will be left wondering, gee why did we give GMAC 5 Billion? Who will pay back this money. No one. It just goes under the run or should I say under the T.A.R.P.

I just hate seeing money wasted.