1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Mar-Jun 2013, Hybrid Dashboard Report

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Jul 4, 2013.

Page 1 of 5
  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,141
    15,400
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Unexpected, Jeff Cobb posted the June, hybrid dashboard report on July 4th. I'm simply posting the past four months, a way to look at trends without getting lost in a short term, month-by-month trend:
    Source: June 2013 Dashboard - HybridCars.com

    So here are the latest four months:
    Column 1
    0 [tr][th]model[th]Jun_13[th]May_13[th]Apr_13[th]Mar_13
    1 [tr][td2]Toyota Prius Liftback[td2]14066[td2]15330[td2]12432[td2]13868
    2 [tr][td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-
    3 [tr][td2]Jetta Diesel[td2]3940[td2]3752[td2]3158[td2]3653
    4 [tr][td2]Toyota Camry Hybrid[td2]3878[td2]4265[td2]3257[td2]4461
    5 [tr][td2]Toyota Prius C[td2]3442[td2]3782[td2]3486[td2]4026
    6 [tr][td2]Passat Diesel[td2]3405[td2]2797[td2]2797[td2]3237
    7 [tr][td2]Ford Fusion Hybrid[td2]3057[td2]3335[td2]3625[td2]3417
    8 [tr][td2]Toyota Prius V[td2]2987[td2]3732[td2]3372[td2]3460
    9 [tr][td2]Ford C-Max Hybrid[td2]2889[td2]3261[td2]3197[td2]3275
    10 [tr][td2]Chevrolet Volt[td2]2698[td2]1607[td2]1306[td2]1478
    11 [tr][td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-
    12 [tr][td2]Nissan Leaf[td2]2225[td2]2138[td2]1937[td2]2236
    13 [tr][td2]Sonata[td2]2129[td2]1817[td2]1447[td2]1623
    14 [tr][td2]Tesla Model S*[td2]1800[td2]2000[td2]2100[td2]1950
    15 [tr][td2]Malibu Hybrid[td2]1651[td2]1695[td2]1551[td2]1359
    16 [tr][td2]Lexus CT200h[td2]1513[td2]1623[td2]1171[td2]1062
    17 [tr][td2]Avalon Hybrid[td2]1394[td2]1514[td2]1423[td2]1616
    18 [tr][td2]ES Hybrid[td2]1239[td2]1434[td2]1237[td2]1561
    19 [tr][td2]Kia Optima Hybrid[td2]1100[td2]1206[td2]1000[td2]1001
    20 [tr][td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-
    21 [tr][td2]RX 400 / 450 h[td2]900[td2]885[td2]688[td2]925
    22 [tr][td2]MKZ[td2]768[td2]715[td2]884[td2]446
    23 [tr][td2]Golf Diesel[td2]698[td2]624[td2]527[td2]754
    24 [tr][td2]Lacrosse Hybrid[td2]619[td2]668[td2]662[td2]717
    25 [tr][td2]Toyota Prius Plug In[td2]584[td2]678[td2]599[td2]786
    26 [tr][td2]Honda Civic Hybrid[td2]568[td2]570[td2]569[td2]572
    27 [tr][td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-
    28 [tr][td2]Cayenne Diesel[td2]560[td2]532[td2]514[td2]451
    29 [tr][td2]Highlander Hybrid[td2]550[td2]545[td2]495[td2]477
    30 [tr][td2]BMW X5 Diesel[td2]544[td2]441[td2]412[td2]462
    31 [tr][td2]GLK Class Diesel[td2]500[td2]538[td2]0[td2]0
    32 [tr][td2]ML Class Diesel[td2]480[td2]459[td2]501[td2]478
    33 [tr][td2]Ford C-Max Energi[td2]455[td2]450[td2]411[td2]494
    34 [tr][td2]Volkswagen Jetta Hybrid[td2]438[td2]473[td2]353[td2]451
    35 [tr][td2]Honda CR-Z[td2]393[td2]427[td2]405[td2]451
    36 [tr][td2]Fusion Energi[td2]390[td2]416[td2]364[td2]295
    37 [tr][td2]Honda Insight[td2]384[td2]426[td2]391[td2]454
    38 [tr][td2]Touareg Diesel[td2]332[td2]286[td2]286[td2]375
    39 [tr][td2]Q7 Diesel[td2]310[td2]334[td2]346[td2]279
    40 [tr][td2]GL-Class Diesel[td2]301[td2]364[td2]465[td2]1011
    41 [tr][td2]Beetle Diesel[td2]278[td2]252[td2]237[td2]284
    42 [tr][td2]Honda Civic[td2]274[td2]249[td2]264[td2]167
    43 [tr][td2]Regal Hybrid[td2]227[td2]291[td2]389[td2]387
    44 [tr][td2]Fit EV[td2]208[td2]15[td2]22[td2]23
    45 [tr][td2]Cruze Diesel[td2]188[td2]0[td2]0[td2]0
    46 [tr][td2]Ford Focus EV[td2]177[td2]157[td2]147[td2]180
    47 [tr][td2]ILX Hybrid[td2]163[td2]195[td2]152[td2]145
    48 [tr][td2]ActiveHybrid 3 (335ih)[td2]104[td2]100[td2]125[td2]78
    49 [tr][td2]E-Class Diesel[td2]98[td2]107[td2]80[td2]105
    50 [tr][td2]Audi Q5 Hybrid[td2]83[td2]105[td2]86[td2]84
    51 [tr][td2]Cayenne Hybrid[td2]62[td2]48[td2]46[td2]46
    52 [tr][td2]Lexus GS 450h[td2]55[td2]39[td2]34[td2]56
    53 [tr][td2]forTwo EV[td2]53[td2]0[td2]0[td2]0
    54 [tr][td2]M Hybrid[td2]47[td2]42[td2]35[td2]58
    55 [tr][td2]Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid[td2]45[td2]34[td2]32[td2]48
    56 [tr][td2]Toyota RAV4 EV[td2]44[td2]84[td2]70[td2]133
    57 [tr][td2]Accord Plug In[td2]42[td2]58[td2]55[td2]26
    58 [tr][td2]GMC Yukon Hybrid[td2]40[td2]27[td2]37[td2]26
    59 [tr][td2]i[td2]39[td2]91[td2]127[td2]31
    60 [tr][td2]Cadillac Escalade Hybrid[td2]35[td2]93[td2]47[td2]35
    61 [tr][td2]S-Class Diesel[td2]35[td2]34[td2]31[td2]45
    62 [tr][td2]ActiveHybrid 5 (535ih)[td2]28[td2]35[td2]98[td2]51
    63 [tr][td2]Spark[td2]27[td2]0[td2]0[td2]0
    64 [tr][td2]E400H[td2]23[td2]29[td2]17[td2]25
    65 [tr][td2]Volkswagen Touareg Hybrid[td2]12[td2]6[td2]7[td2]12
    66 [tr][td2]LS 600h[td2]10[td2]11[td2]15[td2]12
    67 [tr][td2]Chevrolet Silverado Hybrid[td2]9[td2]11[td2]13[td2]12
    68 [tr][td2]S400HV Hybrid[td2]5[td2]8[td2]7[td2]8
    69 [tr][td2]GMC Sierra Hybrid[td2]4[td2]9[td2]14[td2]6
    70 [tr][td2]Porsche Panamera S Hybrid[td2]4[td2]7[td2]5[td2]11
    71 [tr][td2]7-Series ActiveHybrid[td2]2[td2]3[td2]4[td2]2
    72 [tr][td2]A3 Diesel[td2]1[td2]2[td2]5[td2]28
    73 [tr][td2]HS 250h[td2]1[td2]0[td2]1[td2]1
    Source: Jeff Cobb's Hybrid Market Dashboard - HybridCars.com (well worth reading!)

    So let the bragging begin:
    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
    #1 bwilson4web, Jul 4, 2013
    MPGnutcase, telmo744, JimboPalmer and 2 others like this.
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,141
    15,400
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    We were watching a Ron White show last night on CMT (Country Music Television) and saw at least two of the Prius "hum along" commercial. Now if they had a commercial showing one towing a small trailer with some feed bags . . . an ATV . . . a Jon boat . . . a set of surf casting rods and a cooler.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #2 bwilson4web, Jul 5, 2013
  3. Paradox

    Paradox Prius Enthusiast / Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    29,110
    8,589
    201
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Five
    I wonder if running single commercials pertaining to just one vehicle in the Prius family would help sales better than running one single 'family' commercial. Run one for the c, touting it's smaller size, greater city mileage etc. Then run one jut for the v showing its virtues, maybe even comparing it to the c-max like Ford did putting it up against the v. We spoke about this a bit during the last recording of the What Drives Us podcast.
     
    #3 Paradox, Jul 5, 2013
    F8L and bwilson4web like this.
  4. MPGnutcase

    MPGnutcase Active Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    579
    114
    0
    Location:
    Chicago
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    great stats to read
     
    #4 MPGnutcase, Jul 5, 2013
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,141
    15,400
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Although I like the idea of head-to-head with the North American competition, I'm thinking address the Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD) that is commonly spread about which might lead to more sales:
    • fear of traction battery replacement - address the expected life and replacement costs
    • no need to plug in the hybrids - many still think all hybrids have to be plugged in and fear it
    • fuel savings - tricky because of the EPA limits, perhaps a smack-down?
    • North American hybrid - show the Camry hybrid production in Georgetown KY
    • costs - the range of prices and standard features
    My thinking is survey non-hybrid buyers and map their fears and misunderstandings. Then commercials to address these fears directly.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #5 bwilson4web, Jul 5, 2013
    Bob G IA, DadofHedgehog and Zythryn like this.
  6. MPGnutcase

    MPGnutcase Active Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    579
    114
    0
    Location:
    Chicago
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    True many people fear the battery costs and replacement, the batteries are cheaper now and people are going 10 years before needing to replace. Most people don't understand Hybrids at all I think it helps to do some research and talk to exsiting owners
     
    #6 MPGnutcase, Jul 5, 2013
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,530
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    'Cept they ain't fears, they are rationalizations.
     
    #7 SageBrush, Jul 5, 2013
    bwilson4web likes this.
  8. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,530
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    I appreciate the data massaged into nice tables and charts, although it is difficult to tease out how hybrids are doing relative to the market due to month-to-month and seasonal natural variation of the auto market in general ;)

    A suggestion: Include the total non-SUV car sales for N. America in each months tally, and separate out hybrid SUV sales from the remainder. This would allow easy alternative data views for those interested.
     
    #8 SageBrush, Jul 5, 2013
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,141
    15,400
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Jeff Cobb and his team deserve all the thanks. I'm at best, an editor, although others might suggest I'm just rearranging the rubble.

    Jeff does show the relative percentage of the total car market. I believe it was 3.2% in June. Perhaps you might collect the percentages from all of their reports and plot them?

    Bob Wilson
     
    #9 bwilson4web, Jul 5, 2013
  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,533
    4,063
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A

    Bob, I think most of the battery replacement cost stuff has gone by the wayside, and people might be more likely to buy them if they could plug them in.

    On the North American made, yes I am sure the camry hybrid might benefit from this, but Toyota makes far more hybrids built in Japan, and advertising highlighting the camry would hurt the prius family. Solution - as some members of toyota board has said, would be to move prius production to North America.

    Which brings us to the two big ones - value and mileage.

    The percieved value of hybrids is not good. Part of it comes from these payback notions, and some other comes from forced bundling of options to get a hybrid. The camry hybrid broke some of that, but you can't get a stripped prius, but the interior makes it look like a cheaper car. Some people I have talked to think prius costs much more than it does, partially from all the FUD about payback time.

    The mpg, mainly as a hold over from inflated numbers pre-2008, is always talked about as inflated. You need to hypermile to get the figure, is the talking point. The magazines also compare it to hwy mileage, and really its not that much better in this department. All the CR harping about hybrids getting poor mileage compared to EPA also hurts, as does the recent ford c-max commercials. I don't have a solution here, but hybrids need to claim lower oil use as a luxury item instead of a simple payback.
     
    #10 austingreen, Jul 5, 2013
  11. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    12,470
    6,862
    2
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    Yes a v commercial with a lady only getting 25 cheesecakes in her SUV, and then with my wife and I discussing if we can take my v or her Tahoe to get cheesecakes, then ending in an orderly layout of 95 cheesecakes in my hatch might be be the kind of commercial a v needs. show the cargo advantages.

    [​IMG]

    Lumber may be more manly, perhaps carrying pre-hung doors.
     
    #11 JimboPalmer, Jul 5, 2013
    F8L, bwilson4web, MPGnutcase and 1 other person like this.
  12. MPGnutcase

    MPGnutcase Active Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    579
    114
    0
    Location:
    Chicago
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    nice
     
    #12 MPGnutcase, Jul 5, 2013
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,141
    15,400
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    This is an area where a public survey would help. I continue to see in the comments of 'hybrid articles' claims about the horrible batteries. Granted, comments are not a proper survey but they are available . . . reading the comments is my clue.

    I forgot but the same line also makes the Avalon hybrid. These sedans with North American content are good competition for other North American based hybrids like the Mexican built Fords . . . <grins>

    We quite agree on the need for North American, Prius production and it should be a separate facility from Georgetown. But equally important, include more of the hybrid component production.

    In this area, Toyota has the option of improving the control laws. Low hanging fruit, eliminate the accelerator-off, drag and make cruise control in ECO support a wider speed range, say 3-5 mph lower at high power. However, a couple of pages in the owner's manual would also help. My favorite is an MPG vs mph chart and an MPG vs temperature chart but whatever is tried, it needs to be field tested.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #13 bwilson4web, Jul 5, 2013
  14. MPGnutcase

    MPGnutcase Active Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    579
    114
    0
    Location:
    Chicago
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    talking to the service manager at my dealer he claims the Prius is bullet proof and has the least problems coming in to service of all the Toyota's and Scion's
     
    #14 MPGnutcase, Jul 5, 2013
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,141
    15,400
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    One curious pattern, the diesels appear to be having a local uptick. I'm wondering if the recent parity of diesel and premium might be part of what is going on?

    Bob Wilson
     
    #15 bwilson4web, Jul 5, 2013
  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,533
    4,063
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A

    bob,
    IMHO such charts would be helpful to you, interesting to me, but wouldn't really help sway the public to buy more hybrids. I went to an interesting talk on Tuesday "unscientific american" about the difficulty of educating the public and the politicians about scientific matters. The speaker was a former senate staffer, and said one problem with many scientists when they talk to congress is they get too detailed and the politicians eyes glaze over. Even at bloomberg they told her to write scientific articles as if her audience was her audience was a highly intelligent grandmother. With that taken into account, its fairly easy to see how a Consumer Reports story that talks about inflated mileage on hybrids, that is just based on bad testing, gets picked up by lots of newspapers like USA today, and major blogs, and reduces

    With all the science writers getting fired by print and news media it gets difficult. She currently works for the energy poll, which is part of the University of Texas and it tries to find out the public's knowledge and attitude about different energy sources, global warming, and politics of it all. One small bright spot for the future, is when they asked are you likely to buy a hybrid in the next 5 years, 36% said yes in sept 2012, up from 30% in september 2011. I wonder what they will be in 2013. These numbers are skewed high, since respondents had just been asked what they expected the price of gas to do in the future, and if oil use contributes to global warming. But if the car dealers and magazines, did not dissuade people from buying hybrids, it is likely that market share would be much higher.
     
    #16 austingreen, Jul 5, 2013
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,141
    15,400
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    The charts are for new owners, to point them in productive ways to go . . . how to achieve EPA MPG. If I were trying to sell Prius, I would do 'smack down' style commercials:
    • Tale of Two Pizzas - two kids apply to deliver pizza and each gets a new car from their parents: (1) Prius c and (2) Jetta diesel. At the end of the pay period, each gets paid but the fuel costs are taken out leaving . . . the Prius kid buying a large pizza with everything and he offers a slice to the Jetta kid.
    • Ted and Silent Bob's Commuting Adventure - two characters who work at the same place buy new cars, a Passat and Prius. Ted starts the week in front of Silent Bob's house and says,"Watch this!" and burns rubber. Five minutes later, both are in bumper-to-bumper traffic and Ted's diesel is running while Silent Bob's is . . . silent. Then next scene, both open their gas card bills and Ted's girl says,"the macaroni will be ready in 20 minutes" and Silent Bob's girl smiles and says,"lets go out for a dinner date . . . tonight."
    • Airport Luggage Delivery - the delivery man is given a carts loaded with luggage that arrived late and told to deliver them. He walks up to a C-MAX and begins loading . . . and has left over bags. He looks at the Prius v in the next spot and loads everything and takes off. "One Prius v, One trip."
    That is how we sell a Prius . . . <grins>
    No argument about the problem of scientific ignorance but that has been true for a lot longer than just our lifetimes. The age of enlightenment that separated some of us from the dark ages was just a 'blink of an eye' ago. Even today, empiricism has at most a tenuous hold both here and other nations. It is trivial to find those who substitute non-scientific approaches to dealing with the world . . . some of them come here just to raise a ruckus or possibly witness (or witless) their faith.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #17 bwilson4web, Jul 5, 2013
  18. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    8,245
    1,202
    0
    Location:
    NorCal
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Goes without saying I'm pretty darn picky, and I don't like the hybrid, nor plug-in nor diesel offerings very much**. I would jump to the conventional market in a heartbeat (if I could) if I didn't care about getting 40+ combined. ...

    But, most people don't care about getting 40 combined. They are conditioned that 36 mpg highway 'is good'. Perhaps they tell themselves 'I don't drive much in city anyway'. Even with long freeway commutes, my average mph doesn't go over 30, that's a lot of city driving.

    Toyota salespeople have told me, quite simply that most people (ok, the majority) just want a reliable car at the best price.

    I think, I'm not sure, that many people see the liftback Prius as just an odd-shaped Corolla type of car ... that happens to cost something like 6 to 7 thousand more than a Corolla. I'm a bit surprised liftback sells as well as it does.

    c and the v will always have less potential for sales than liftback.

    Toyota salespeople have also said hybrid sales seem to be tied to gas prices.

    As for Camry Hybrid, I see it as having a trim problem. Base LE is a few thousand more than an SE, and for that you get crappy steel wheel with ugly plastic covers over top, and reduced trunk size with one fold down rear seat and a tiny porthole of a pass through.

    my take on all hybrids, plug-in, diesels ...

    Prius liftback - yeah, i bought it, been useful, but ergonomic annoyance. Likely would have been less hassle with lower end Accord sedan new in 2011.
    Jetta TDI - Trunk too small, suspect reliability, rarely seen around here
    Camry Hybrid - 0% chance I'd hand over money for car with badly offset steering wheel. I think a lot of these LEs simply go to rental companies.
    Prius c - too small for me, awful seating
    Prius v - don't need wagon, do not like front interior
    Fusion hybrid - short windows make for closed off like interior. trunk too small for my hardware case
    C-Max - Don't want hatch. also has badly offset steering wheel
    Sonata / Optima hybrid - Not so impressed with their conventionals.
    CT200h - too small
    Malibu hybrid - seriously? it's a hybrid?
    All Honda IMA hybrids - too small
    Avalon hybrid - too big
    ES300h - too $$
    all other BMW, GM, Ford, I haven't even looked.

    Nissan Leaf - Not looking to keep 2nd car for long trips + hate driver's seating in Leaf, yuck!
    Tesla model S - gorgeous car, but way out of my range
    Volt - too small, too $$
    PiP - more $$ w/ same ergo issues as non-plug
    Fit EV - too small
    Focus electric - too $$, no cargo room
    Rav4EV - too $$, don't want SUV

    Diesels - Mostly European with suspect reliability plus few buy them around here.
     
    #18 cycledrum, Jul 6, 2013
    wjtracy and bedrock8x like this.
  19. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    3,938
    1,351
    28
    Location:
    Florida
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    #19 Sergiospl, Jul 6, 2013
    austingreen likes this.
  20. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    12,470
    6,862
    2
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    I would be willing to bet big money there is no 'belt pulley' CVT in this car.
     
    #20 JimboPalmer, Jul 6, 2013
    lensovet and cycledrum like this.
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 5