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Misfire cylinder 1

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by Clark Griswold, Mar 21, 2012.

  1. Clark Griswold

    Clark Griswold New Member

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    I'm calling 1 the first cylinder on the left when outside the car looking at the engine from the front.
     
  2. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    That's unfortunate as it is clear you've put lots of effort into this.
    Do you notice the engine missing or other driveability problems?

    What is the odometer reading?

    If the odometer reading is high could it be that cyl. 1 has a wear problem - which an engine compression test would reveal? (Note that the Toyota diagnostic laptop is required to run such a test since MG1 normally spins the engine at 4x the speed compared to the starter motor of a traditional gas engine.)

    The wiring to the igniter and the injector is potentially suspect. The engine ECU itself is another suspect. Ideally you might use an oscilloscope to look at the cyl. 1 igniter and injector signals and compare to the other cyls. Perhaps you may need to rely upon Toyota dealer assistance?

    Cyl 1 is at the "front" of the engine, closest to the passenger-side fender in LHD vehicles.
     
  3. walleye seeker

    walleye seeker Junior Member

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    i had one of the wires on mine work loose on the coil plug causing a misfire code . pull plug off coil inspect to be sure that the pins are all the way in and locked in place to assure god contact
     
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  4. Clark Griswold

    Clark Griswold New Member

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    I got a pretty good deal on the car.. paid 11,500 plus tax and it's very clean inside and out, so as long as this doesn't turn into a multi thousand dollar problem I should be OK. The gas engine seems to run a little rough when it first starts, but after that it seems to run very smooth. My mileage is consistently up in the 50's.

    80,000. I might add that when I had the valve cover off when changing that injector I checked the valve clearances. The intakes on cyl 1 were right where the book calls, but both exhausts were .009, where the book calls for .011 to .013 I think. Not terrible, but out of the recommended range. But I got the same measurements on cyls 2, 3 and 4 for intake and exhaust. Was kind of interesting how there was no variance between the clearances on any of the cylinders.


    Yeah, I think it might be time to let the dealer do a diagnostic. I called a local dealer that a friend recommended and they said they'd do a diagnostic for a hundred bucks. I'll check the wiring harness as closely as I can... seems like if this is the problem it would be hard to find, as the problem is pretty intermittent. If I clear the CEL now, it will come back after about 2 or 3 short trips. It cleared itself last night when I disconnected the battery, and reappeared after about an hour of driving and 2 or 3 cycles of the on off button. Anyone know how much it would be if it needs a new ECU? And is that something I'd have to have the dealer do?
     
  5. Clark Griswold

    Clark Griswold New Member

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    I'll do that. Thanks WS.
     
  6. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    The engine ECU is mounted behind the glove compartment, next to the hybrid vehicle ECU.

    If it gets to the point where the ECU is diagnosed as the problem, you can buy a salvage unit for ~$300 or so. There isn't much demand for used ECUs because they are generally reliable.

    Then you might download repair manual info from techinfo.toyota.com and replace the ECU yourself.
     
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  7. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    You have to be careful replacing the engine ECU aka ECM because of the immobilizer. The service manual is not exactly clear on this but it is possible that you would need to jumper the DLC for half an hour if replacing either the HV ECU or ECM. I'd do a compression or leakdown test before replacing the ECM.

    I am very suspicious of your coil packs and the wiring from them to the ECM. That is usually the source of misfire.
     
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  8. Clark Griswold

    Clark Griswold New Member

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    Thanks, that's good to know. A friend just suggested that I try to get the service records from Toyota to see what kind of history the car has had relating to this problem. Not sure if they'll let go of this info, but he used to be in the car business and said he might know a dealer who would run a report for him. :rockon:I bought this car from a small dealer who most likely got it from the auction. It was probably at the auction because it had a problem someone didn't want to deal with. If the problem was something simple it wouldn't have made it to the auction in the first place.
     
  9. Clark Griswold

    Clark Griswold New Member

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    OK.. here's the latest and it's not good... I went to Toyota today to have them do a diagnostic. Before they started I got talking with the service manager and had him run a history on the car. It ends up that July, 11 the previous owner blew a rod... claims she drove over a big rock. The dealer put in a new short block on the PO's dime. One week later she came back to the dealer with a check engine light.. which is the same one I have now: misfire cylinder 1. The dealer checked the easy stuff... plugs, igniters and injectors and told her the light had nothing to do with the rebuild and any further work that they did wouldn't be covered by the dealer warranty on the engine. The PO declined and sold or traded the car in the following winter. Somehow the piece of sht used car dealer that I bought the car from got hold of it in Mid February this year. He took it to his local dealer and they again checked out all the easy stuff and told him the next step would be to pull the cylinder head to check for internal engine damage... which he declined. He then cleared the CEL and sold the car to me 2 weeks later.

    What a mess. Couple of interesting points... why did it take a week after the rebuild for the CEL to come on if it was somehow related to the rebuild? If this problem isn't related to the rebuild, then what unrelated problem could cause a newly rebuilt engine to start to misfire? Either way, the dealer that did the work was not accepting any responsibility to the original owner, let alone the second owner, who they say wouldn't have a claim even if it was a problem related to their rebuild.

    So I'm faced with a few options... sell the car as is and lose a few thousand dollars on it; Fix it myself with a friend who's a competent mechanic, or drive it with the CEL on. Actually, the car runs pretty damn good. It only seems to run rough when it first starts up and when it's shutting down. The plug doesn't show any evidence that it's been fouling any, and I'm getting in the mid fifties mpg.

    This sucks! I feel like getting my Louisville Slugger out and playing a little Used Car Dealer Baseball.
     
  10. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    It might still be worthwhile getting the compression (or leakdown) test done as it still could be marginal compression on that cylinder. Perhaps the "new" short block was really just a salvaged part, assumed to be in good condition but in reality no quite so.

    If it does turn out to be marginal compression then you could try a ring soak or few other things before going for the more expensive options (or selling).
     
  11. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    Sheesh, you have dealer malfeasance combined with used car dealer malfeasance. Honestly, you may be better off pursuing the dealership that performed the repair. Such carries a 1 year, unlimited miles warranty and I believe does transfer to a subsequent owner. If they did engine mechanical work, and now there is a misfire that cannot be explained by all the usual non-mechanical suspects (plugs, coil, injector) then it can only be something with the valves, timing, or pistons/rings.

    The alternative is to install a used motor. It's a fair bit of work, at least two days. But you could get a good one for fairly cheap. Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market.
     
  12. Clark Griswold

    Clark Griswold New Member

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    Tomorrow I'm going to look into the legality of the dealer who did the work saying the warranty isn't transferable. He already denied culpability when the previous owner confronted him one week after the new motor was installed, so he's obvious one of "those" dealers.

    Seiferts, why, if this were an internal problem with the engine, like rings, timing or valves, (valve clearance is in specs by the way) would it take a week for the misfire light to come on? Of course, I really don't know that... I only know she took the car back in one week later. The light could have come on during the ride home for all I know.
     
  13. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    Yeah I'd say a week was just the time frame that it took her to get back to them, not necessarily how long it took for the light to come on.

    "Hit a big rock" could mean that it smashed though the sump and slammed into the bottom of a rod/bearing in one mighty hit, but it also very likely could mean simply cracking the sump and losing all the oil. Whichever way, but particularly the latter, if it was still running after the impact then she probably drove it without oil until it died. (LOL sorry about the women + oil light stereotype). So after the event the heads mightn't have been in the greatest condition either.

    BTW. Do you know if the "short block" was a new or a salvaged unit?

    The only other thing that makes me wonder about the "hit the rock" thing, is that it might have given the car a pretty serious jolt. So while an internal engine problem is definitely looking the most likely at this point, it still might be an issue with the wiring from the ECM to the igniters as Seilerts mentioned previous. (eg wire lose due to jolt.)
     
  14. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    No one in their right mind would install a salvage short block. A junkyard will sell the whole motor, and all you have to do is shove it up in there. More likely the PO paid the dealership a few thousand install a new block, crank, and pistons, because a new motor installed by a dealership at full MSRP is $10,000.

    It is possible that the misfire only occurs under certain conditons. Further, it takes two OBD II trips and a misfire rate of only 2%.

    I wonder if anyone checked for vacuum leaks and proper operation of the VVT actuator, as the VVT oil filter could have been clogged with debris.
     
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  15. Clark Griswold

    Clark Griswold New Member

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    Interesting development this weekend. I've been driving the car with the CEL on for the past couple months while trying to diagnose the problem. This weekend the light went off on it's own and it's stayed off for a couple days now. We have had a lot of rain lately but other than that nothing has changed. Anyone have any theories on this?
     
  16. tdelker

    tdelker Junior Member

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    My truck had an intermittent misfire on cylinder 1 (ford ranger, not a direct analog to this). The light would be on most of the time in the winter, off in the summer. I assume this is because of the ethanol in the gas. I put in fuel injector cleaner (two tanks full) and it went away for a year or so, then would come back the next winter. Another tank of fuel injector cleaner would cure it again. I suspected carbon build up causing per-ingnition, but never knew for sure.
     
  17. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    For most of these, if you start the car 3 or 5 times (I forget the magic number) and the problem is not there, the light goes off. The code is still logged in the ECU, but the light goes away. So that would mean that over the weekend went it off and back to a couple restarts before that, the issue hadn't occurred. And it still hasn't come back if the light is still off.
     
  18. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    That's a really good suggestion tdelker.:)

    Hi Clark. If the light comes back on, then test tdelker's suggestion by running a few tanks of the high octane (premium) fuel, just to see if it makes any difference.
     
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  19. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    I was wondering if there had been an outcome to this story.

    What would the theory be here? Pre-ignition based on a hot spot caused by a sloppy overhaul? I suppose the knock sensor would not retard timing enough if it was only happening in 1 cylinder. Some other guy claimed that he was able to make knocking in general go away with two treatments of Gumout Regane to decarbon the piston tops. Might be worth a shot to run some of that through.
     
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  20. Clark Griswold

    Clark Griswold New Member

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    I guess it can't hurt. I ran a can of seafoam through it a couple months ago when I first got the car, and then hit it with a couple cans of injector cleaner. Isn't Seafoam supposed to do about the same thing as Gumout? Right now I'm just keeping my fingers crossed. Was going to take it in to a trusted mechanic to do a diagnostic this week. Sure would be nice if this thing fixed itself.