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But, the first line is telling.

"An invitation to visit General Motor's main R&D facility, just north of Detroit, is like being given a ticket back to a mid-1950s...."

i clicked on the link in the post and was taken to a page that said "enter here for free"

i clicked on it and was brought to a page that said click here to enter and was taken to the article.

but some cracked logic from GM

"You always have your early adopters," said Alan Taub, GM's executive director for R&D, about today's hybrid buyers. "Toyota sells as many Priuses as we sell Pontiac Aztecs. Is that a success?"

sorry dont see any waiting lists for the aztecs bud...

They accused the two Japanese carmakers of selling their hybrids at a loss to generate positive environmental buzz, and argued that hybrids appeal only to a microscopic subsegment of U.S. consumers.

wont need a microscope for long!!

and other industry observers say that Toyota could surpass General Motors as the world's biggest automaker by 2006, partly on the strength of its hybrids.

maybe you should stop bitchin' and start making something worth buying....

As for the question of whether the Japanese carmarkers are selling their hybrids at a loss, just to look good for P.R. purposes -- well, the closer one looks, the less that seems to be true. Instead, Japanese carmakers appear to making the kind of front-end investments that pay off in the long run, with market share and eventual profits.

Toyota's 10 Billion in profit last year makes it hard to believe that they lose money on ANYTHING they do...

Back in the 1970s, the Big 3 carmakers watched in dismay as Japanese imports carved a huge swathe through their traditional markets. Is history about to repeat itself? Is Detroit missing out on a major shift in technology -- and car-buyer psychology -- by committing only grudgingly to hybrid vehicles? By betting big on the ever-elusive technologies of tomorrow, like hydrogen, carmakers such as GM may be letting the present slip away.

you better believe it buddy... you may not be able to live through another blunder...especially one as big as this one is gonna be.

"It's natural to wonder how we can make a profit on these vehicles," says Wade Hoyt, a spokesman for Toyota Motor Sales USA. "I would chalk it up to sour grapes. We broke even on the first-generation Prius during its model run, and the current generation will be profitable after about two years on the market, which is typical for any vehicle." The company's high-end Lexus division, which will start selling its first hybrid SUV next year, has tallied up more preorders for the Lexus RX 400h than any other vehicle in Lexus' 15-year history.

maybe now this urban legend will die...

Brooke says that while the Japanese carmakers have earned bragging rights by being first to market with hybrid vehicles, it's too early to pick a true winner. But if there is a victory in store for one of the Big 3, it'll be one of the come-from-behind variety.


i wonder how much he was paid to say that??

I don't think I like GM coming from behind...

Anyway, an Automotive News article (see below) states that GM *does* have plans towards hybrids. Maybe they are waking up after all.

Italics in article by me



50 hybrid models predicted by 2010


By Richard Truett
Automotive News / December 06, 2004

DETROIT -- Two analysts who study advanced powertrains say automakers are preparing to unleash a bumper crop of gasoline-electric hybrid light vehicles.

By 2010 more than 50 hybrid nameplates will be available in North America. Volume will be close to 1 million units annually, according to the Hybrid Vehicle Sales Forecast.

The study was done by Thad Malesh and Ed McLaughlin. The two former J.D. Power and Associates analysts started their own research firm, the Automotive Technology Research Group in Thousand Oaks, Calif., last year.

Malesh said the forecast is based on an analysis of platforms outfitted with hybrid powertrains as well as derivatives that could be converted easily. Malesh cited the Ford Escape Hybrid and its offshoots, the Mercury Mariner and Mazda Tribute.

Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co., Ford Motor Co. and General Motors offer a total of seven hybrid nameplates.

Toyota says it will make the powertrain available in all models. The automaker already is marketing its hybrid technology and engineering expertise to other companies. Toyota has inked a deal with Nissan Motor Co. and is talking to Porsche.

Malesh says GM is the wild card when it comes to hybrids.

GM is expected to make public an update of its hybrid plans at the Detroit auto show in January. The automaker has announced plans to add hybrid powertrains to the Saturn Vue and Chevrolet Malibu and Equinox.

But Malesh sees Toyota retaining its engineering and sales leadership in hybrids. "Toyota wants to make it so doggone painful for anybody else to do the research and development that they will fight off competitors," he says. "They want to be the dominant provider of the technology to consumers."

I fervently hope I'm wrong about this, but I predict that the Big 3 will screw up big time in the hybrid competition, get reamed out by the Japanese in the marketplace and then threaten to go bankrupt (causing record unemployment and perhaps tipping the economy into a major recession) unless the government (translation: the taxpayers) bail them out. I'd love to think that Detroit learned its lessons in the 1970s, but we'll just have to see...please, Detroit, prove me wrong! Please! :roll:

Toyota hybrid technology licensed to domestic car builders? Hmmmmm, Great gas mileage and environmental benefits . . . between frequent non-hybrid breakdowns!!! :roll:

Toyota is now talking to Porsche.

What’s the difference between an porcupine and a Porsche???

A: The porcupine has the prick on the outside.

Does this Toyota/Porsche development signify that some future Porsche drivers will be less prickly? :?

Well, Ford at least has their own hybrid system, and has actually delievered it to market. In some ways it's not as advanced as Toyotas, but I think that's just the details (non electric A/C???). In a lot of ways, it's more advanced than Toyota's.

What's more, it's going to be used in some japanese cars (Mazda).

So please, bash GM. They're the other part of the Big 2. There's no more Big 3, ya know, since Chrysler is now owned by Damiler.

in what ways is it more advanced than Toyota's?

Ummmmm. I do beg to differ.

I think you meant to say:
“Ford had to “lease†their hybrid system to be able to get to market . . .â€
“ In a lot of ways, it's more advanced by Toyota's hybrid systemâ€.

Ford needed to license Toyota hybrid technology . . .
http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_101177/new...ewsarticle.html
. . . so they could make it to market . . . oh . . . sometime this decade.

Care to name any of these “lot of ways†in which Ford’s hybird system is “more advanced†than Toyota’s?
Ooh, wait. :idea: NOW I get your play on words!
By “advanced†you mean “advertised†. . . and so by “more advanced†you are actually saying that Ford is going to have to advertise the hell out of this thing to “Escape†losing their butts.

I truly hope the Hybrid Escape is the biggest all time seller for Ford . . . waiting lists and all. With an EPA 36 City / 31 Hwy the Escape 4x2 model looks like a potential winner!
Imagine the freak that would put on GM and the other naysayers!

GM's boardroom the morning after Ford announces outstanding Hybrid Escape sales and waiting list numbers: :? :cry: ukeright: :crazyeyes: :argue: :silly: :letitout: :goodmorning: :tomato: :tongue: :naughty: :ahole: uke: uke: :computer: :?: :wtf: Then maybe :idea:

You guys should be careful what you say, actually. Ford leased some Toyota patents yes, but that's because they came up with similar ideas and were worried about infringement.

There was a good article in C&D a while back, with a nice sidebar on the Ford system. It's roughly the size of a conventional automatic transmission, which means it's much more portable than Toyota's is. Theoretically, it could slap onto and into quite a few Ford (and Mazda) engine bays without any issues. Practically, there just aren't enough batteries.

Okay, question: Does the Escape have a conventional fluid auto-tranny or the power-split device of the Prius models (both THS and the new HSD)? Just wondering.
Thought the 'magic' of Prius efficiency was the power-split device, thus not having a big power-robbing fuel-sucking more-things-to-break-down conventional auto tranny? Is it the 4-wheel drive that requires a standard (of which I'd use quote, 'cause I feel the power-split device will soon become 'standard') auto-tranny in the Escape? Inquiring minds want to know...Love my Prius!

The Escape has a planetary CVT just like the Prius.

A few more details on the Ford system can be found here...

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?se...4&page_number=1

The paragraph to note is...

Under the hood, the hybrid machinery is tightly integrated into a module that bolts to the back of the transverse 2.3-liter four (driver's side) in a space not much bigger than an automatic would require. The hybrid transmission is made by Aisin-Warner, which also makes the Prius package, although the parts differ substantially in detail. Ford has combined the motor, the generator, and the brain module into a much tighter package than Toyota has, suggesting future use in more models.

Don't get me wrong.. I love my Prius. I'm not saying the Escape is superior to the Prius, which I think some people may be thinking. But I think the Ford Hybrid System is very well done, and I love to see other people innovating as well. If Ford comes out with a more modular system, which it looks like they have, then the next gen Toyota system can only benefit by the increased competition.

:cussing: Hydrogen/Fuel Cells will never become an automotive fuel.

We will eventually see bio-diesel fuels and lubricants.

Exactly what “bio-diesel fuels and lubricants†are you talking about?

Are you referring to the byproducts from Soylent Green production which is scheduled to begin production in the year 2022?

Shhhhhhhh! :mrgreen: :wink:

Soybean, Corn, Peanut, etc. :idea:

You need to keep up :idea:

Did you know there's a dude running around in Kalifornia in a Mercedes he fuels with cooking oil from McDonalds, etc.

They are happy to give it to him because otherwise it's hard to dispost of.

Smells like French Fries wherever he goes.

Check this out:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...eggiefuels.html