New Toyota Hybrid R (Sports) Concept due for Frankfurt Auto Show

Stop teasing us with concepts already, get with reality!

 

New Hybrid Racing Badge!

Toyota's press conference will begin at 12:45pm on first press day (10 September) in Hall 8.

 

If they discount it like the PiP, I'm in.

 

So, a supercapacitor-based hybrid system can capture all of the energy of regen braking and transfer it to the main battery?

 

Isn't all the knowledge we're getting from the Roswell UFO great!

 

Supercapacitors USA 2013 | Conference

 

Yes. While not a hybrid, the iEloop regenerative braking system available on the Mazda6 uses a supercapacitor to capture the energy, and then power accessories and charge the 12-volt battery.

 

holding breath . . . . hopping on one leg . . . .

 

Joel Schindall, in the 2nd video, has a point, but he exaggerates. Most hybrid battery charging/discharging systems use 40% to 60% of the battery capacity. Some even more. Also, an 'ultracapacitor' charging/discharging system is not as efficient as a battery type because of the nature of capacitor voltage changes as energy varies; i.e. a battery retains its voltage (more or less) as it charges and discharges. Capacitor voltage varies from 0 to full voltage as it charges and discharges. Thus the conversion electronics for batteries are simpler, cheaper, and more efficient because they don't have to work over such wide input voltage swings. Mazda's ieloop capacitor works from 24v to 12v, I think, so it has to 'waste' a portion of its storage capacity to interface with the conversion electronics.

 

I don't get this. Part of the inefficiency of the regen brakes on a small battery hybrid like the prius is inability to handle larger amounts of power. Nimh become more and more ineffieicnt to charge as they get over 70%, probably why toyota limits it to 80% (higher less efficient and more heat). To use the regen we need slow braking. An super cap should have different electronics than a battery, but the losses are in those electronics. The capacitor should consume less power than a battery.

They are different, but fairly straight forward for a capacitor. The difference really comes from the price. A supercap is more expensive and heavier than batteries. Regen brakes on a sporty car would use more of the load of a super cap, but a super cap unless it got very expensive won't have the energy you want for a hybrid car. People are experimenting with ultra batteries that combine a super cap with a battery. That allows the energy to weight more like batteries but power to weight of a super cap.

 

I thought batteries were limited by internal resistance in regards to regenerative braking. Which, I guess, is related to their C rating. They simply can't take in a charge as quickly as a capacitor. That's why combining them has potential. Maximizing regen improves fuel economy and can add EV range. Mazda's system adds 2mpg to the EPA for the 6.

 

Hybrids are supposed to save on gas especially at slow speeds. Sports cars usually eat up gas so people can go fast. A hybrid sports car sort of defeats both purposes, so I really don't get the whole "hybrid sports car" concept, it just seems so pointless. I say if you want a fast car that uses less gas, get an all electric.

 

You lost me with: (probably Yaris)

 

Toyota's Hybrid-R Concept Is A 400 Horsepower Hot Hatch

Toyota Hybrid-R Concept Is A 400-Horsepower Yaris

Yikes did they add a 2L turbo and an ultra-cap to the yaris hybrid, and make an expensive yaris?

 

I thought it would be more Supra than Yaris!

 

Power density (the ability to sink and source big surges of current) is where ultracapacitors shine. Energy density (the ability to store large amounts of current at a certain voltage) is where batteries shine. Efficiency isn't the reason automakers limit the percent of battery charging and discharging. Battery life is the reason. Full charges and deep discharges dramatically reduce battery life. My point is that conversion electronics for a battery are simpler, less costly, and more efficient for batteries because batteries retain roughly the same voltage as they charge and discharge. Li-Ion chemistries are particularly good at this. In sharp contrast, a capacitor is at 0 volts when fully discharged and full voltage (whatever that voltage rating is) when fully charged. The power conversion electronics, therefore, have to work over that complete range of input voltage to get all the energy out of the cap. That means buck and boost stages and probably multiple stages, hence the cost, complexity, and loss of efficiency compared to battery power conversion electronics which have a comparatively narrow range of input voltages to work with.

 

Agree here, but... if Nimh were more efficient at higher SOC, it would not produce as much heat, so lack of efficiency as it gets closer to full is a reason battery life is impacted. You don't hurt a capacitors life with heat. That is a bonus where power handling is used. Some Lithium chemistry are much better than nimh at being efficient to charge at higher soc. That is why they have higher current limits for a given energy.

Ultracapacitor Options (and Ways to Charge Them) Grow | Passive Components content from Power Electronics

Now that is a chip to charge and discharge a 2.5V ultra cap, its going to be more expensive for a car sized one, but... these things follow electronic improvements. It is simply not that complicated to charge an ultra capacitor. Most of this excess power is just thrown away in the prius regenerative braking scheme.

I am not seeing a complexity problem. You simply have to have hardware that can drive a motor from variable input voltages. Now if you are going to have nimh + ultra-cap, you are going to need 1 or 2 extra inverters to make it work. These inverters will need cooling like the current ones.

The mazda i-eloop does the charging side, but then charges the battery with dc to dc converter. This is simpler, and likely less expensive than this type R hybrid. A sports car hybrid is going to want more power than the battery has, so add more for the inverter(s).
MAZDA: Brake Energy Regeneration System | Environmental Technology
A DC-DC could though simply boost the power to go through the normal hybrid inverter.
The 2014 Mazda 6 with i-ELOOP Gets 40 mpg, Starts at $32,570 – News – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

That doesn't sound like it will be very expensive. Many company's charge that much just for radar cruise control. The i-eloop bumps mpg up 2mpg city and 2mpg highway, YMMV. It won't add anything on cruise control.