Hmmmm....call me a stickler for details, but I though that the '09 was just a carry over and that the '10 was supposed to be the Gen III and that major changes were supposed to be in battery technology (lithium phosphate vs. NiMH) not battery size.

A bigger battery is sort of interesting, but making the anode 75% bigger (or at least using 75% more La) doesn't necessarily that they're going to get 75% more performance out of the finished battery. I'm sure that there will be some performance increase, but I thought that there was a serious point of diminishing returns on NiMH batteries (weight vs. charge density.)

This seems more like evidence that the Japanese are scrambling to ramp up NiMH battery production. If you gotta make more cars that depend on these batteries, you gotta get more batteries, and that's gonna mean that you gotta get more raw materials....

There is a small part of my brain that also saying, quietly, that a bigger NiMH battery might be the hedge for the '10 of they can't get the lithium technology to pan out.....

An interesting article that is playing on recent statements by Toyota which declare Li battery packs are not ready for mass production in hybrid vehicles. Also, the GM recall of NiMH hybrid battery packs is directly mentioned.

Sounds like speculation of another material...like oil.

Oil? As in the price has dropped? If so, We had better not fall down on this one!

Need to keep push the tec bubble, reduce consumption and dependence ill regardless.

It is not a speculation. GM did recall their hybrid battery packs.

Battery pack recall has GM hybrid sales stuck in neutral

Toyota doesn't make their NiMH batteries. IIRC, Matsushita (Panasonic) builds them

Hi dw...,

The article says "due in 2009". Which is not the same thing as the 2009 model year. Its goint to be the 2010 model year, probably being sold in October of 2009 that will have the bigger battery.

Sort of. It is a joint venture between Toyota and Matsushita.

AUTOSAVANT: Panasonic EV Energy Co. Hints at Toyota's Hybrid Ambitions

It is called Panasonic EV Energy Company but Toyota owns as much of it as Matsushita.

I was just telling my partner how much better Toyota is setup to make hybrids at dinner. GM's lack of planning is making things worse and worse for them. It would take at least three years for GM to get the same supply as Toyota is getting now.

Gen III must refer to the 2010 model year, due out next spring? The 09 Fall models are probably the same as the 08s. It could mean the Li ion technology originally intended for Gen III is not ready yet.

I was under the impression the Ford/Mercury hybrids were based on licensed Toyota technology--hence the same suppliers.

There are conflicting forces at work in the American economy putting pressure on the price of oil.The same speculative sources which pushed the price of oil up can also push it down. The car companies are desperate for lower oil prices.

Good for any technology that will stop the use of foreign oil. Our economy is in the dumps and may be just like so many super powers of the past. Countries that loose their economies to other countries and have no competitive edge. Not a producing economy but one that is stagnant. We should do everything to keep America first.

Toyota owns 60% of Panasonic EV Energy Co., Ltd.
TOYOTA: News Releases

Ken@Japan

Yes, you're right, my bad.

However, I still stand by the position that this sounds like a scramble to build more, rather than bigger, NiMH batteries.

Though I do suppose that it could be someone's poor attempt at starting speculation based on lack of confidence in Toyota's (in particular) ability to deliver the lithium tech battery.

The article is very consistent with the requirements for the next gen Prius.

The gen III will not be a PHEV at first so it needs battery POWER over battery capacity. Regen power (high charging amps) and power for acceleration (high discharging amps). The 75% increase of the anode is pretty much consistent with this. This is why it will be able to ship a 40-50% mileage improvment in the city. I doubt that the highway mileage will improve drastically.

I hope however, that the design of the III will be PHEV/EV-ready. The current model cannot operate on battery power alone for long periods even after a PHEV conversion (due to some design issues which are very hard to circumvent).

This explains a lot. I was thinking to myself that if it is not a plug in, then there is a minimum battery requirement but once you go over a certain capacity, you are not gaining anything except weight. Simplified, if you need X kw-hrs to accelerate from 0 to 30mph, and regenerative braking provides X kw-hrs, then a battery that holds 10X kw-hrs would be pointless.

If I am correct, you are saying that the capacity is not being increased, but the size of the electrodes is; thus allowing the power to increase, which would allow the car to remain in EV mode longer before the engine kicks in. Am I understanding this correctly?

Ummm. You're half right, it definitely would be an increase in capacity as well as power. You would need more electrolyte, a bigger cathode, yada, yada, so on and so forth in order to balance out the bigger anode. The biggie is if it uses the same size container and thermal management. This is just a by product of further R & D that Toyota builds upon the experience they already have. You are witnessing the snowball effect of R & D building upon previous work and then applying it to mass production experience they already have.

I didn't think so. As I recall the 85Ah units in the EV1 and RAV4 EV were at least as good as Toyota's 6.5Ah or Nilar's 9Ah.

Ovonics 9500:
12V, 85AH, 17.4kg, 6.7L
Specific Power: 250 W/kg
Specific Energy: 60 Wh/kg
Energy Density: 155 Wh/L
http://www.evbones.com/9500c.gif

Panasonic EV Plastic Prismatic NimH
7.2V, 6.5Ah, 1.04kg, 0.59L
Specific Power: 1300W/kg
Specific Energy: 46 Wh/kg
Energy Density: 79.3 Wh/L
Plastic Case Prismatic Module | Panasonic EV Energy Co., Ltd.

Nilar Membrane NimH
24V, 9Ah, 3.9kg, 1.93L
Specific Power: 277 W/kg
Specific Energy: 55 Wh/kg
Energy Density: 112 Wh/L
Nilar - a new way of packaging energy

Seems like the big ones were pretty competitive with the best available today. The Panasonic's specific power is pretty impressive though. Too bad Chevrons patents prevent anyone from actually using the big ones

Rob

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I kinda hoped that the EEstor ultracapacitor diode might find its way into hybrids. Zenn claimed they were going to use it.
I don't think they have really produced a commercial product yet and haven't heard anything recently about it.

Re: Lithium Ion vs NiMH

While I can't speak for the rest of the article, this statement is, I believe, wrong

In short, everyone -- including Toyota -- would like to start shipping hybrids with lithium-ion batteries.

This is primarily because a Lithium Ion battery (with equivalent storage capabilities to the current NiMH battery packs) would be significantly lighter than their NiMH counterparts. Which results in a lighter car, and better mileage.

However, technical problems with the Lithium Ion batteries has apparently stymied everyone for the moment. (Temperature sensitivity is usually bandied about as the biggest obstacle, but I don't know.) Remember, backed away from Lithium Ion last year, after indicating that it would be used in the next generation Prius.