I think, if the engineers thought it out, that Toyota could set up the Prius to manage the charging on the battery and enable the computer to secure charging the battery when it reaches 80% charge. I'd say in a few years Toyota will roll at least one model with plug-in capability .

Do the [plural for Pruis?] built after 2006 still have the ***EXPLETIVE DELETED*** bladder?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mini2prius @ May 1 2007, 05:47 PM) [snapback]433514[/snapback]</div>

I would assume so since the bladder helps to reduce the vehicle's overall emissons, thereby making it "greener".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mini2prius @ May 1 2007, 04:47 PM) [snapback]433514[/snapback]</div>

Only in the US, to get the PZEV rating.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kdk84 @ May 1 2007, 04:58 PM) [snapback]433476[/snapback]</div>

Controlling the charge on a plug-in is not hard. Toyota shouldn't have any trouble with this. That said, there may be other issues which preclude going to a plug-in.

Tom

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mini2prius @ May 1 2007, 03:47 PM) [snapback]433514[/snapback]</div>

I surely hope not.

The bladder might have been a design decision for our gen 2 Prius to allow it to meet PZEV...

But as we *all* know there are other PZEV vehicles in the north american market that do not sport a bladder.

My hope is for Toyota not to make the same mistake again, because this time around they really do not need to.


Cheers;

MSantos

In the www.autobloggreen.com article referenced, it sounded like Watanabe confirmed that the motor (MG2) was going to be smaller in the new Prius. This is the strongest tip-off I've seen that Toyota will use the Lexus drivetrain design for the 2009 Prius. Providing two gear ratios for MG2 (but not the ICE) allows for a smaller motor.

In another topic on Priuschat, Ken@Japan mentions a Toyota goal of 12.7% increase in mpg for the 2009. That sounds realistic to me.

Adding plug-in capability to the Prius would change the fundamental goal of hybrid technology, which is to do load-leveling on the ICE so that it can be sized for optimum efficiency. On the other hand, the HSD concept does make for an easy transition to electric cars.

One of my pet peeves is that many people who advocate plug-in hybrids don't count the electric power consumed when they calculate mpg. Do they think electric power is free and non-polluting?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fan-atic @ May 2 2007, 09:47 AM) [snapback]433884[/snapback]</div>

Do you think gasoline is cheaper and cleaner than utility electricity?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kdk84 @ May 1 2007, 01:58 PM) [snapback]433476[/snapback]</div>

You only need plug-in capability if the car can actually run just on the batteries for more than a mile. Which the Prius can not.

Why not? Battery durability.

When you talk about battery durability you are talking about managing heat in the batteries. When batteries are used they heat up. The more they are used the more they heat up, the shorter the battery life.

Per California law (which is an EXTREMELY good law -- if anything it doesn't go far enough) Toyota (and any other company) has to warrentee the batteries for 10 years or 100,000 miles. Knowning the way Toyota does their gas engines you can be very sure that they will last a lot longer than that.

As far as the MOTOR being smaller in the next Prius, that says that the -electric- motor will be smaller. The gas part is called an engine by everything that I have ever read. I find it interesting that the motor will be smaller. What about the engine?

as far as the bladder, the hihy and hycam both have a sealed metal tank. i'm assuming with a complete redesign that they would have the good sense to implement that in the new model prius.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(OlsonBW @ May 2 2007, 10:42 AM) [snapback]433929[/snapback]</div>

This is not true. A plug-in hybrid Prius today can still get great reductions in gasoline usage at highway speeds (around 100-120 mpg at 60 mph). The power from the battery is "blended" into the mix from the engine, so the ICE works much less hard and so uses less gasoline. The next Prius is said to have a range of 9-miles EV-mode (around 2.5 kWh available energy).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(OlsonBW @ May 2 2007, 10:42 AM) [snapback]433929[/snapback]</div>

The newer lithium-ion chemistries can easily manage thousands of deep cycle discharges (Altair cells can go from 0-100% and back in 5 minutes 15,000 times), and have calender lives over 10 years. They are also smaller, lighter, more powerful, hold far more energy, and the raw materials at least are cheaper than those used to make NiMH, as used in the current Prius.

Thus, the battery in the next Prius can be much more powerful and hold 10 times more available energy than the current Prius battery, while remaining the same size and weight and maybe even cost, if they switch to a modern LiIon chemistry.

The electric motor can also be smaller, but that by no means that it should be less powerful. Eg Rasertech have a motor the same size as Prius MG2 that can put out 500 hp.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mini2prius @ May 1 2007, 04:47 PM) [snapback]433514[/snapback]</div>

I would guess no. The Highlander and Camry hybrids don't have them. They meet the AT-PZEV ratings as well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(OlsonBW @ May 2 2007, 09:42 AM) [snapback]433929[/snapback]</div>

I thought California required a 150,000 warranty.

The motor referred to was MG2, the propulsion electric motor. The engine (ICE) probably won't get any smaller.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(etyler88 @ May 2 2007, 09:36 AM) [snapback]433918[/snapback]</div>

No, to both questions. Coal makes up 50% of our electric power generation, but power plants are 35% efficient vs the normal 18% for automobiles.

My original point was that the mpg of plugin hybrids should include the energy-equivalence of the electric energy they use as well as the gasoline pumped into their tanks.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ May 2 2007, 11:26 AM) [snapback]434004[/snapback]</div>

Those technologies sound great, but I suspect they are cost-prohibitive.

I'd like to know where you came up with your energy density and cost estimates, as they fly in the face of conventional wisdom. The most advanced lithium-based cells I know of have about three times the usable energy as a NiMH cell of comparable size, and are by no means as affordable.

Bottom line is Toyota COULD do better, but they won't until it is cost-effective to do so.

- Justifyd

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Justifyd @ May 4 2007, 03:02 PM) [snapback]435691[/snapback]</div>

Or if another auto company announces they will release one.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dipper @ May 4 2007, 06:41 PM) [snapback]435720[/snapback]</div>

That would be a surprise since all automotive manufacturers are in business to make money. However, taking the assumption that someone else actually does produce something better, I would expect Toyota to follow suit. (My money is on Toyota getting there first, actually.) There have been far too many announcements to make anyone budge on the announcement alone. Can you say "GM"?

My point is that the very latest technology is usually still closer to the experimental/research phase than the production phase. So, yes, there exist technologies that can better achieve the desired objectives, but the real question is whether they can be implemented at a "reasonable" cost, which is simply a cost that the end-user is willing to pay.

Take for example the customized Prius. There are many variants, but the general theme is to up the battery power. Costs also vary, but $5k-$10k sounds pretty common. I don't know how much it would cost Toyota to do this at the factory -- probably significantly less -- but it's obvious they decided that, for the time being, it wasn't worth their while. Of course, they also had to consider the cost of warranting that configuration, by no means a trivial factor.

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm all for advancing the technologies that improve our lives. I'm just trying not to get carried away with the wishful "could be" thoughts. Better to keep a realistic attitude about where we are and what lies ahead. But enough of my soapbox...

Oh, and to answer n8kwx's question, all U.S. 2007 Prius have the bladder. It's probably here to stay, so hopefully the engineers will keep working to improve it.

- Justifyd

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Justifyd @ May 5 2007, 01:32 AM) [snapback]435909[/snapback]</div>

I hate to ask this, I'm sure it's been beaten to death on this site, but what's the issue with the bladder. Humans have bladders.....