Next voltec, what do you think of the new rumors

Great discussion about the car folks. The he said/she said stuff is boring. J, D, and U rarely say anything new.

It is funny/odd/predicable on this forum that most of the conversations are around CO2 and MPG. Personally I'm very impressed that GM engineers and designers weighed the pros/cons of those and blended them with a dynamic, smooth, and quiet "luxury" feel car. I dare guess that MOST do NOT want a high RPM reving noisy drive for a few miles and then back down to a "smooth and quiet" ride. That is not a good "UI" IMHO.

To clarify John's point:

Press Release - TOYOTA REVEALS DETAILS OF PRIUS PLUG-IN CONCEPT

Using the 83% NEDC to EPA fudge factor gives ... 10.32 miles. Then add in 0.02 gallons and you can get 11 miles with 34.15mpg under harsh demand.

Definitely not 15 miles.

Is your head stuck so much into the sand, that you can't see your obvious bias.

In the past you have compared worst case real world volt versus epa for prius phv. Then sometimes you want to compare best case. HOw about comparing best case volt to worse case for the prius phv. To any objective observer there is something very warped in your comparison. What is the matter with comparing epa to epa? That seems the best objective course if you are not going to compare cars head to head on the same day and weather.

You certainly can talk about the real world, but please not an entirely biased discussion as you often do.

Now you always seem to make up goals. What is the goal of the prius then pray tell. You seemed quite upset that the volt did not meet its epa goal, even though the test had not been anounced. Toyota failed to get close on a well understood test. I would call that 15 miles electric that turned out to be 11 miles in charge depletion very disapointing, especially since it used the gas for 1 mile. That leaves it really at 10 miles of electric. In 2009 the toyota leaks where that the gen iv prius phv would have a bigger battery. That tells me that if the gen IV does indeed get a bigger battery, the 2012 has not met toyotas goals.

What is next?

I'm not quite sure I understand this. You seem quite mad about gm, but not about toyota. This means a double standard to me. Doesn't it to you? Toyota most certainly was less public about their goals, but has not hit them. I certainly do understand engineering trade offs, and needing to get a product out the door at a cost, but these things seem to be quite lost on you.

Well you are on a thread about fuel cell cars in australia, that repeats the speculation that the next gen phv will have a longer electric range. Instead of talking about hope leading to hype as you did on this thread, you acted as if it would happen. No shooting down the article. No shooting down the fuel cell hype toyota has been engaged in since 2002. Why not? Its because of your double standard. Please treat this thread in at least half the way you did that one, and actually read what we are talking about instead of screaming hype at every turn.

I doubt gm will give you clarity, nor will toyota about future cars. If you asked about clarity on speculation on that thread, it would have been quite clear. Instead you made accusations to unnamed people. I think that is rather sophomoric, and I called you on it. It was rude, and I hope you understand why now. I don't really expect you to stop, but I will call you on it.

That was not a goal for the production, that was for the prototypes, which were a different design.

Here is the announcement of the production
Toyota | Toyota Introduces 2012 Prius Plug-in Hybrid
Which says 15miles.

I looked a bit and did not see anything with a production model goal before then. if you know one, please post it.

That's where the product diversity comes in. They can produce whatever 'great' configuration they want as along as there is also a choice that will be purchased by the masses.

The clock is ticking. The tax-credit will expire. We have genuine emission & dependency problems. Meanwhile, the competition (traditional vehicles) continue their dominance reign by introducing MPG improvements.

I likely owe you apology then. In the those long Volt threads here, I may have started treating the multiple Volt opponents as one.

I have had discussions with you in the past where we may of been of opposing views but were constructive. Your first post here was trollish though. We are just shooting the breeze with what ifs to pass the time. If some outsider takes what was said on Priuschat about a future Volt and runs with it, that isn't any poor showing on us or GM.

No grudges held here. I state observations, then push to move on.

That comes with taking a "pushy" stance. Wanting to move on means not letting the rehash of old information dominate anymore. Unfortunately, that desire for progress appears to others as "rocking the boat". And sadly, the approach has been to welcome "cheerleading" and shun those attempting to have more than just the repeating of particular points.

Think about what still hasn't been addressed yet, items we don't stand a chance at discussing while the rhetoric continues.

It's been a heck of a challenge trying to get any real-world data about winter performance. It's a topic that is simply dismissed whenever brought up. That makes a topic like recharging in winter a daunting challenge to even just acknowledge. Are people of the fact that charge-rate can be reduced in sub-freezing temperatures? Think about the influence that could have on capacity discussion. Many haven't, yet pounce on those who attempt to bring it up.

Thankfully, we are beyond the paranoid stage. In the past, when a Prius supporter would bring something like that up in a discussion about Volt, it was immediately assumed to be an effort to undermine Volt. The enthusiasts were in a state of panic, blindly lashing out in fear of anything that could tarnish reputation. I sure am glad that isn't the case anymore. Phew!

power

I agree, time is passing and the tax-credit will soon vaporize. Competition in the traditional vehicles is getting stronger with improved MPG. Also, what can not be discounted or ignored is the current state of economic affairs (IE: unemployment, falling purchasing power and line of credit being lowered). Lower purchasing power limits the masses to what they can purchase for new vehicles.

Tax-credits are, and will always be a "bandaid" approach to entice consumers to make a purchase. Another way to look at the tax-credit issue of is: it is a form of welfare, somebody has to pay the bill. The taxpayers get stuck footing the bill just like the "bailout" money forwarded to keep GM from sinking.

No surprise here.
uck footing th

Your orginal post in this thread

Was NOT about anything useful nor asking meaningful questions, it was you making vague condescending, without reference or support. The vicious cycle is your condescending comments without content, then claiming your just trying to move forward.

It has never been at all hard to get real-world winter performance on Volts; there is plenty of data over at voltstats.net. You are free to analyze to your heart's content. Volt owners have had discussions at GM-volt.com about the temp and charge rate issues, but its rather academic since it adds maybe 10% to the charge time -- people suggesting its an issue may get a cold welcome because they are pushing a non-issue as something important. Charging time as almost nothing do to with range. The real cold-weather range issue is first about how much heat they choose to use, and second about battery differences. But looking at say Minnesota Volt owners from Dec 1 2011 to March 1, the Median %EV was still over 75, and median MPG was over 150, which means battery range was still enough for most people in Minnesota, in the cold of winter. So based on real-world data, it does not look like the cold is that much of a problem for the Volt.

Real world winter performance of PiP's that not available, but I doubt that's what you meant. In fact real world data for PiP is very limited for any setting.

This thread IS just a RUMOR - get it? Time to lighten up!

DBCassidy

John, could you show me any thread at PC in which this topic was ever raised and simply dismissed?
I am assuming you mean range and not charge rate?
I would be happy to give you any information you would like about the Volt's behavior in cold weather that I can from my experience with it.

Hey, John doesn't have a point. He picks the number that makes the prius look the best and the volt look the worst. Then he wants to make excuses for the prius numbers, and talk about "winter range" to pretend objective volt numbers look bad. All I did was put out similar numbers from both cars. The 15 according to john, was since september of last year, which gives the prius a big benefit of knowing the test and having mules for at least a year running epa tests.

Here toyota's figure from 201o of 13 electric miles
Prius PHV FAQ
You can clearly see their reasoning on why the small pack.

But clearly since 2009, toyota has realized that batteries were less expensive than their estimates. Cost estimates for ford, nissan, and gm are under $700/kwh and falling, and ford is going to use similar cells to the phv in its energi models.

It could be expected that the sweet spot for redesigned battery in the production phv would get more miles, as toyota said it would.

This is not really of topic here though. I was using the information to talk about double standards. Toyota greatly improved the battery from demo to production. I was not criticizing the phv, only reasoning that makes it sound like it "over delivered", when in reality it missed the mark by more than the volt did.

I don't recall ever not providing this information or shying away from discussing it.

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  Energy Consumption
  
  The Engine running due to temp occurs when outside temp is < 25F and with temp belo 25, the engine restarts when Coolant is < 105F, and runs...
  Post by: drinnovation, Jan 4, 2012 in forum: Chevrolet Volt
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  Will the Chevrolet Volt be a failure or a success?
  
  What do you think the gas-only mileage would be? That is a substantial reduction in range. I assume its gas motor cannot shed heat into the cabin...
  Post by: Skoorbmax, Oct 4, 2011 in forum: Chevrolet Volt

Read more: http://priuschat.com/search/198936/?q=volt+cold+temperature+AER+gwmort&o=date&c[node]=76#ixzz1yjdIOPEo

The press release said concept, not prototype. They are different things.
They used the word target.

To me that reads as the target being to produce a car with a 20km NEDC range, just as the Volt's target was 40/50.

"Up to 15 miles" is neither "EPA estimated 15" nor "NEDC estimated 15 miles".

You can be critical of Toyota for being misleading, but I'm not surprised they wouldn't want to say an estimated 6 miles AER or 11 miles blended given that people living near the end of that range would likely have lower average speeds and better ranges.

By they if you mean GM for the volt, then you are setting up a straw man argument. Toyota is not making a mass market car in the prius phv. In fact, all indications are that the next generation prius phv will have a larger battery pack and more range, to better fill its segment of the market. The prius liftback and prius c are what toyota is targetting for the mass hybrid market, not the prius phv. Why would the volt go after this segment? That would be a entirely different car, and a different discussion.

By stating some false goals for a vehicle, then claiming it will not acheive your goals, you are just spouting non sense. I understand you spend time trolling on gm fan sites, but that is not what this thread is about. How about you actually reading the thread and responding, instead of attempting to move your agenda.

How about product diversity is great. The tesla S, volt, leaf, prius phv all hit differenent customers needs. Not everyone wants the same thing and there are trade offs in performance and price.

What is this all about. First you accuse a legitimate discussion for hype, then you are saying changes aren't fast enough, that you want more hype. That seems pretty idiotic.

The tax credits will be around for a while. The cost of batteries are going down slowly. I would think improvements in ICE technology would help improve hybrids and phevs as well. If an improved ice helps a mild hybrid get higher mileage at a lower price point that is a good thing too. One size does not fit all.

My favorite part is when John insinuates the tax credit will run out soon, which he knows is based on 200,000 sales, then says its not selling.

Again, I didn't say that.

It was time, not quantity.

What I actually said was dropping the cost to compenstate for the entire tax-credit prior to it expiring is quite unrealistic in such a short amount of time. And that's just to make up the difference. To reach the GM stated goal, even more must be cut.

When 2015 arrives, it doesn't matter how many were sold. Say goodbye to that money. And of course, there is the reality of mandated budget cuts ending incentives early.

What is the basis for that statement about a 2015 ending date? While it is always possible for congress to change things, and the mandated budget cuts reducing the number, the current authorizing acts are based on numbers sold, not a date. See Internal Revenue Bulletin - November 30, 2009 - Notice 2009-89

GM has to be acutely aware of cutting unit production costs in order to increase sales. If the tax-credit where eliminated within the next year,due to budget cuts, what would GM do? I think that GM has very little "wiggle room" in having the financial "deep pockets" to keep going with the Volt. I also believe that, currently each Volt GM is selling, there is very little, if any profit being made. More likely each sale is a loss, for GM.

DBCassidy