Next voltec, what do you think of the new rumors

Tax credits do not exist all over the world and they won't have the 200,000 phase out limit. For the Volt to be a global car, it needs to be designed with the MSRP.

The tax credit blessing can work against GM in the next gen. The current Volt is already maxing the tax credit with 16 kWh pack. Increasing the battery capacity would not get any more tax credit. Toyota can increase the battery size of the PHV battery size and the qualified tax credit will increase.

GM will need to lower the price, lower cold start emissions, increase CS MPG and interior volume to midsize 5 seats. The goals of the concept Volt was below $30k, 50 MPG and 40 miles EV range. Those are huge milestones still yet to achieve. At $30k, it needs to compete with the midsize Prius because the compact 50 MPG Prius c starts at $19k.

Toyota simply need to add more battery which will be offset by tax credit. The ground work of not increasing carbon footprint (per the state of the grid) for Prius PHV has been done. Next gen will follow that ground work and increase the electric motor power and PHV battery size accordingly, while balancing out the various government incentives all over the world.

Don't forget about also increasing sales. With the expectations recently lowered to 20,000 here for 2012, it's a head-scratcher how all that will be accomplished.

All automakers face the challenge of shifting production to more efficient choices. GM's struggle has been on the lack of flexibility. The platform itself could be altered, they just don't seem willing to actually do that though... which is why the rumors thrive.

Let's start with your substantive part of your post. The new engine is likely to reduce unhealthy emissions and increase charge sustain fuel economy. Those are two things in the direction you are pointing. I guess that means you are excited about the change

The rumors have the battery configuration staying in exactly the same place. GM's goals seem to be to continue this as a 4 seater. Since you have been posting, I have been looking in the backs of prii. I have never actually seen anyone in the middle seat. I'm sure this must exist somewhere, but it certainly can not be an over riding need to most of the market. Most have been solo drivers. GM may in the future add voltec to cars with 5 seats, and the rumor is there might be a lighter version in a hybrid cruze. That should be a different discussion.

The volt in 2009 dropped the attempt to be at 50 mpg. These rumors seem to confirm this is a dropped requirement. I don't think this is a bad thing. The average driver is not going to be saving many gallons of gas a year, and the handling seems more important than some arbitrary goal.

Certainly the prius phv looks like it has a battery that has too small a capacity for the market, which makes the rumors that the battery capacity increases likely. The volt seems better in handling, acceleration, and instrumentation. The gen 4 phv may try to improve in these areas as well. Its good to see both companies investing.

There are the rumors of moving the platform to other cars. These changes are about making it suitable for the cadilac ELR. It seems like a very flexible platform, but its unlikely to expand rapidly for many years.

Agreed tax credits dont' exist everwhere.. but pricing is different elsewere. The Volt/Ampera pricing, compared to other EV or PHEV, is well positioned in EU.. it is now the best selling Ev in EU
Ampera (Volt sibling in EU) is Europe’s best selling passenger electric vehicle | PriusChat


The question for the manufactures is what they can charge, and tax credits just increase their margins. The company are about making money, balancing short term gains (which the market reacts to quickly) and long term investments in their future. GM is not in great shape to absorb the decade of losses that Toyota took on the Prius, but they could stil invest at different levels to keep it growing.

I think the issue of cold-start and MPG_CS are, for the average customer, way down on the priority list. Only prius fanbois and people that don't understand the EREV overall model, think those are critical. Average consumer will care more about quality and price (and maybe power and perception of their friends). The bigger issue is people don't know/understand EREV just like they did not understand HV when it was introduced. Media attend has often been misguiding and sometime bordering on intentionally false. And until there is enough reliable information and good history on the battery/reliability the majority of people won't trust them.

At 33K Net it already competes with the Prius. The question will be what GM does when the tax credit ends.. will they cut their margins to invest in the furture, or will they pull back. No one knows.. even those at GM will be waiting to see the data available at that time.

I thought the bigger engine rumor is for ELR and the same engine for gen2 Volt is your assumption. Assuming that is the case, bigger engine doesn't mean it'll be cleaner. Minimizing cold engine start emission requires exhaust heat recovery and spark advance tuning. All those technologies are already in Prius PHV. If bigger engine means higher CS MPG, it is the right direction.... assuming it would fit under the hood and not protrude further (as the battery already have) into the cabin.

GM needs to step up with a cleaner, more efficient gas engine and cold start performance. It was put on the "low priority" list because utilization was thought to be 20% but turned out to be 39%.

Volt's battery holds equivalent of 1/3 gallon of gas and the gas tank holds 9 gallons. So, it has 27x more energy in the tank to be consumed. It's efficiency and emission cannot be ignored, again!

Perhaps your life style is lonely. I have used my 5th seat many times, once 6 squeezed in. Remember, the safest seat for an infant is the rear middle seat. Certainly Volt's battery pack is too big and I am sure it has put off many potential buyers.

3,780 lbs car with a "backup" fuel system seem like a waste for a solo drivers. Not green at all, no matter what fuel it runs on.

Certainly not small for those within 15 miles commute range. That's 68% if a second recharge is possible at work and about 50% charging once at home.

Bigger PHV battery would surely expand the potential buyers. The key is not to increase the price and give up interior volume. I am crossing my fingers they put the spare tire in and lower the price in 2015. Those are easier goals than what Volt has on it's shoulder.

There is no actual EREV in existence, perhaps only in fanboi fantasy. The concept seems easy to understand but in reality it is very difficult and inefficient to implement. As we agreed, the closest car to come close to EREV is Fisker Karma. That car is full of compromises. It is better to go all EV like Tesla Model S.

I don't know who you agreed with it that the karm was closes. What I though was agreed was to agree to disagree on what is what and wait on the SAE definition to resolve it. The Karma is not closer to beng an EREV.. it can use its engine at any time. While the Volt allows the engine to run in some special modes its is an EREV as I (and many) interpret the definition.

But just replace "EREV" in any of my posts with VOLT and you'll know what I mean. The problem from an education point of view is that people don't understand why MPG_CS does not really matter or why startup emissions being 2x or 3x a prius is not a problem.

Where is you data showing cold starts are at 39%.. %ICE miles over the whole fleet != fraction of starts.
And in comparison where is our data on number of Prius cold starts?

Its how big is the tank, its what you do with it. The battery provides 94MPGe for a 2012, and will be 98MPGe for the 2013. So if one choose a good choice of power, its way better as its that's more efficient than any gas engine.

Really.. what's your MPG? What is mine with my ER backup but mostly EV? What is the fleet average overall energy for Prius compared to the Volt? The Volt is is way more green if you can use green power.

yep a PHV with a reasonable battery size to say 40 miles, and make it so it can do highway speeds of 75mph in pure EV and it would be comparable.. But those are not as trivial as you make it sound as the current configuration would not be good at high speed. In contrast, all the Volt has to do is drop its price, which it can do with no engineering changes (its a business decision). If they want to improve their profits they need to find ways to reduce their costs, but that also depends on volume. The Leaf already tried to play the lower-price card, but noone followed them down as the companies probably correctly feel they can charge a premium and still sell a modest number of cars. GM does not need to make a lot of money on the Volt to learn from it and build the next generation and for it to serve as a halo.[/quote][/quote]

You haven't been reading the thread have you.
The rumor is there will be a revised voltec 1.5, with a new engine by the end of 2013 for the ELR. Improvements will make the volt either in the 2014 my or 2015 my. The gen II volt still is not expected until later. The volt and ELR may or may not share the engine, but a modified version of brand new 2L DI turbo block that will be introduced in the cadilac ATS. This will be modified for voltec to be more efficient. Yes, this engine should be able to qualify for SULEV. It may also be a different engine, but it points to a more powerful and more efficient engine than the 1.4 engine. Nothing says the new engine will not be 1.4 liters though.

This isn't a volt versus phv thread, no matter how much y'all keep trying to make it. EHR is not required, nor do I think GM will minimize it, only lower it enough so that it looks good in testing. BMW uses electronic warming of the catylist, gm added blowing more fresh air on the catylist, mazda uses valve closing to keep more hot exhaust in the chamber then stratified charge to burn hotter at start up. There are many techniques.

The SULEV emmisions package did not seem low priortity, they just did not hold the volt production until they got them into the car. This was tacked on to the emissions package in the mid year refresh of the 2012my. This allows them to actually design it into the vehicle, something they did not have time for originally. Nothing to do with utilization. The amount of cold starts have not increased at all from predicted. Most people understand that if you have X amount per mile, but only use it Y percent of the time, tail pipe emissions are X*Y, but unfortunately this is not labled in the regulations. It forces a idle mode that neither the prius or volt uses in real life for emissions testing.

The rumors are that it will be improved, but its not a major change to get it to 50. I don't think it was ever ignored. Changes in voltec including the hold button will slightly improve mileage. Until bsfc charts are published and people have experimented with the car we don't know how much. Your idea about energy storage versus use are a little bit crazy though. The battery is used most of the time even though it holds much less energy than the gas tank. Those on voltstats use battery power 70% of the time. Many do not even operate the ICE except for long trips.

Every time I have had a trip that required room for 5, we have used a different vehicle. Often we needed room for 6, occasionally more. Its not like the back seat is wonderful. I have looked into the back seats and haven't seem them used much in prii. Do you have some type of stat? Certainly if you need the prius back seat, but no more it is a very good car for you, I just don't think its much of a market requirement. I do expect the prius phv battery pack to grow in the next generation and it to retain the same size back seat. If you buy a extended cab pickup it can easily seat 15, if you life is too cramped for only 4, maybe you need a pickup truck.

I am not sure what kind of judgmental crap that is. Its a free market, most choose less efficient cars than the volt. Is there a reason you singled it out. If 3780lbs is a waste, isn't 3000lbs. I often have 1 or 2 in my prius, but think your measure of waste is stupid. I'm not going to go out of my way to fill my backseats just because my car is heavier than a smart car.

You were the one that brought up the speculation that the prius phv would gain a larger battery pack. Please complaign to toyota if you don't think they should do this in the gen IV. Its been rumored since 2009, and the rumor was just released again last month by insiders. Toyota australia said the pack was too small for the australian market, and they would wait for the next generation before importing it. The trade offs of higher cost and weight and size versus range make sense for a bigger pack. THat is at least to the engineers at Toyota. Please argue with them.

That's called cherry-picking. Fleet means an entire category, not just a specific vehicle. Combine all the Chevy cars and compare them to the average of all Toyota cars. The 750,000 hybrids from Toyota easily offsets...

That's the rumor Volt supporters certainly are trying to spread. In reality, we only have a few months of data available, but the resulting MPG boost is matching what had been expected all along

We can play that game
Corporate Average Fuel Economy: How Automakers Rank - Cars.com
Tesla and Honda are definitely out a head of Toyota, but wouldn't you want to compare the volt to the other cars if its about the volt. I mean does it matter that honda makes a more efficient fleet than toyota when you really are talking about the prius versus say the insight? Sometimes we should talk about the average of that car model, sometimes an individuals driving habits and the car. It shouldn't really matter what the manufacturing fleet looks like.

Hey USB was the one that brought it up on this thread, You talked about it on the other thread. Toyota clearly looks like its going to improve the battery range next go round. I really don't think this should be about volt versus prius, as you obviously want to keep making it. But if you are going to go there lets at least not be in denial about what is going on. I am certainly not saying the data coming in is unexpected, we expected that the prius phv would be in this ballpark of electric miles/month. That is why the rumors of a larger pack in the next generation started even before the demo vehicles were on the road. There was a great deal of data from plug-in conversions.

It does matter. The goal is to replace traditional production with vehicles offering with much better emissions & efficiency.

This thread is about improvements on the volt. You are certainly entitled to start a thread about the sad state of cafe improvements, or how fast cafe is improving What ever your point of view is. I certainly do not want to judge the prius badly because Toyota sells the sequoia, but if that is how you feel, more power to you. I did drop those cafe numbers on you so that you have the data you need to start.

I do hope all the plug-ins improve and help us reduce oil dependency. For the next few years the impact will be very small on the fleet, but the higher cafe rates in the future may help. Certainly if you buy a prius or volt instead of a Sequoia or Tahoe as an individual you are helping. I may even agree with your point of view on that other thread, but certainly toyota's cafe numbers should not make you say, I'll only buy tesla. Toyota sells guzzlers and I will not support them, is not a good pov. You need to look at the cars as they are improving on a thread like this. That is if your goal is to contribute, and not just to whine.

Maybe it matters if you are trying to invest in a company a consider that important for long-term financial status. It matters in terms of being vocal to change.. but the manufactures will build what people will buy.

That is why its all about education now.. we have to help educate the public and help drive sales of all EVs and PHEVs..
We have to change the buying culture, that's what sets the long-term trends.

But the overall manufacture fleet is irrelivent to the discussion of a single model which is the point of this thread/forum.

My education effort is pointing out how others are drawing conclusions for people, rather than just providing facts for them to decide on their own. Notice the lack of actual data?

Try this: Recharged twice. Traveled so far 38.1 miles. Display average 118 MPG. Remaining EV distance 7.9 miles.

Again, your effort appears to be to whine and redirect threads.
I did try nicely to answer you a few times. You are not being educational, you are acting like a spoiled 3 year old. This thread is about improvements of plug ins. I understand you just try to whine and derail, please leave this thread now.

Yes, I have I've noticed most of your posts about the Volt have no data. And talking about 1 trip is not much data.
Charged last night, Today I did 34 miles, 100% EV, 20 miles remaining showing. when I got home. To bad you needed to use a bit more than .25 gallons for today's trip and so many gallons in just a few months. I don't expect to use 60 gallons for 10000 miles this year.

But more importantly is long term data over a large cross section, like we can see at voltstats.net. But that is data which no other car is providing automatically so its hard to compare but easy to show people that the Volt really works for a wide range of people.

For this thread, we're discussing data on how things might be better/worse with a 2.0L.

Having considered it more, I think a 2.0L would be a good move for GM, even if its exactly the same efficiency as long as it allows them to reduce cost? Why?
1) Cost is the most important variable for them to address.
2) Having the power may attract more people (even if it does not change MPG_CS) or really change the off-the-line pickup
3) It should allow better NHV when in CS mode.
4) It should allow reduce dependence on MountainMode (which i use a lot).

Of course my preference would be improved efficency..

More data from the rumor mill.. what is goign the ELR?
From:
Cadillac ELR: More Details On How the Volt Will Become a Caddy (Hint: More Power)

This suggests 1.8L.. not 2.0 for the ELR.. so not likely a Volt would go to 2.0

There's a clear effort to downplay data. That dismissal is a good example of drawing conclusions.

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Dismissing someone presenting a single measurement as "not much data", especially a single atypical measurement, is just science/engineering.

Your comment is ironic since just a bit earlier in this thread you said

So when you presented even more trivial data, data that is atypical for you (your best tank on the MPG spreadsheet is 86MPG, so ) I was calling you on it. If you want to talk about data,which is plural, talk about a meaningful amount of it, or say that the single example is an exception event (e.g. personal best).

Thanks. Another data point for probable voltec 1.5 in the ELR with a new engine at the end of next year. In the first part it talks like it may be turbocharged. In the main area it is naturally aspirated from a new family 1 DI, that is 2L or less and likely 1.8L. That sounds about right for a price/efficiency point of view. Anybody know about these new engines?

1.8 DI sounds big enough to run in multi-mode or atkinson valving.