Will the tax credit be in effect for the Altima Hybrid?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChuX @ Dec 7 2006, 10:23 PM) [snapback]359175[/snapback]</div>

There's another story w/a little more info at http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...372/1148/AUTO01.

Yes, it should be, but I don't know if the IRS certification has come thru. http://www.aceee.org/transportation/hybtaxcred.htm predicts it'll be a $2350 credit and obviously Nissan will have a long way to go before hitting the 60K cap.

ok, guess it will be a long time before i consider a car from this company if ever. (it took me 19 years to get over a feud with comcast) thankfully, Toyota did not do the same 8 state limitation, otherwise i would probably still be driving my 24 year old corolla

Nissan should wake up and smell the coffee. There is a reason the Toyota hybrid line is taking off all over the US and spawning even other homegrown hybrids worldwide, and they, at least, have made a commitment to expand the hybrid line. Very disappointed in this statement by an executive after making such a show of their upcoming hybrid at the Auto Show. Hypocritical to say the least.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChuX @ Dec 8 2006, 01:23 AM) [snapback]359175[/snapback]</div>

Don't know. But it will not qualify for HOV lane stickers in CA.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HBO6 @ Dec 8 2006, 01:14 PM) [snapback]359362[/snapback]</div>

Hypocritical? How so? Sounds like he is being very honest. He said they are introducing the hybrid because they feel they have too. CA is requiring them to sell a PZEV, whether they want to or not.

And hybrids are not money makers for the car companies yet. The hottest seller, our beloved Prius, has been subsidized by the taxpayers up until recently to the tune of over $3000 each. That tax credit is cut in half and gas prices have fallen by 75 cent a gallon. The result - a sharp drop in hybrid sales in just that last two months. Dealers have them on the lots now (if you shop, you shouldn't have to be on a waiting list for a Prius). With slightly lower gas price and tax credits, and finite number of HOV lane perks - hybrids will have to compete a more level playing field with conventional cars. Will Toyota make money if they have to make up for the tax credit by reducing the price of the Prius and other hybrids in their line?

They might. But the market won't support an enormous line of hybrids for right now and the immediate future.

Toyota is going to have what? 9 models available as hybrids next year? Sounds good to the few customers that want them. But all the car makers start doing that, there may be do much competition to support the prices to make them profitable.

I think it's pretty easy for everyday people on the street to criticize what big company executive decide, but they didn't become execs because they are stupid (even though most of us like to think that). They run a business.






I will add here that Nissan's honesty would keep me from buying a hybrid Altima. While other car companies may actually feel the same way, I don't think I would want invest in a car that the maker openly admits they never wanted to build.

a sharp drop in hybrid sales??? Nov sales for Prius were UP 1.1%... granted not flying off the lot, but still matching BEST November sales ever

"partial zero-emissions"????

Would a mathematician please explain the concept of partial zero to me?

Mike

only zero when in EV mode.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Curtis SAC @ Dec 8 2006, 01:44 PM) [snapback]359425[/snapback]</div>

First, the subsidy doesn't go to Toyota. They do make money with each Prii sold, but you're right, they probably sell easier with the tax credit.

But keep in mind that the tax credit is a new thing, it was a much smaller incentive for buyers of 2004 and 2005 Prii, yet those were backordered as well. I think people who were debating about the Prius decided they'd better buy one in the early summer, before the tax credit was halved. So it's more of a bump up falling back to normal levels (need to find that post that has it listed month-by-month). The falling gas price was largely coincidental, IMO, but at any rate gas prices hit their low and are slowly going back up, if it makes a difference.

Now that people who could buy a Prius sometime in the July-Nov time period have made their decision and new car buyers are in the market, I think Prius sales will continue their continuous up trend (averaged over time). And of course the 2008 model will be a redesign, which always draws people. I don't think Toyota will be reducing the price so much as dealers won't be able to charge MSRP anymore. I don't know of any other car that sold at MSRP for that long in those numbers. When the Nissan exec was saying that the hybrids need incentives to sell, he wasn't talking about the smaller hybrids, like the Prius and HCH. The Explorer, Lexus 400h and Accord hybrids fall in a different category, with a largely different target audience.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Curtis SAC @ Dec 8 2006, 11:49 AM) [snapback]359425[/snapback]</div>

Answer 1: Hypocritical all the way. Their "Goal" per Nissan's OWN Press Release was part of a new "philosophy", that this was "the right technology to the right market at the right time", and not that they were being forced.

Nissan Press Release October, 2006:

"The 2007 Altima Hybrid is part of Nissan's ongoing efforts in the area of environmental protection and vehicle efficiency. The company's aim is to provide the right technology to the right market at the right time and right value to the customer."

"The Altima Hybrid is another example of Nissan's ongoing philosophy that passion for driving and passion for the environment are not mutually exclusive..."

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/10/04/oc-auto...-altima-hybrid/

Answer 2: It's pretty clear that the momentum for hybrids is here, right now, and auto companies know it. Most certainly, the "market" would support hybrids for fuel efficiency, emissions reduction, to significantly reduce oil dependence, but, of course, there has to be some more hybrid choices for this to happen, which is starting to occur now. In our own US government, both parties are coming together on this issue. At the recent meeting with the President and the Big 3 Auto companies, 2 out of 3 CEOs drove in hybrids.

In the movie, "Who Killed the Electric Car", the former Energy Commissioner referred to "20 years of technolgical stagnation", yet in Nissan's Press Release they refer to themselves as having "Innovation Leadership", then the executive remarks how they only did it becuase they were "forced". How is it that technology has advanced by leaps and bounds for almost every industry except Auto, and we have all benefitted, and the companies have profited by it?

Emissions: It's not just California that want's to clean up the air- Per Green Hybrids, "The vehicle (Nissan Hybrid) has been certified to meet California emissions requirements and will be sold beginning in early 2007 in those states that have adopted California emissions regulations: California, New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont, Rhode Island, Maine and New Jersey. These states are among the strongest markets for hybrid vehicles." More states are sure to follow.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that what's good for the environment will be good for business. That is the future.

I am not a hybrid news nut, and I have never paid much attention to Nissan. All you say makes the exec look hypcritical. But the article linked in the orginal post did not include that context, neither did the post calling the exec a hypocrit

It's pretty clear that the momentum for hybrids is here, right now, and auto companies know it. Most certainly, the "market" would support hybrids for fuel efficiency, emissions reduction, to significantly reduce oil dependence, but, of course, there has to be some more hybrid choices for this to happen, which is starting to occur now. In our own US government, both parties are coming together on this issue. At the recent meeting with the President and the Big 3 Auto companies, 2 out of 3 CEOs drove in hybrids.

Big deal. I always laugh at the celebrated and powerful when they drive their hybrids... to the airport where they board private jets. I don't think car execs and Hollywood elites driving hybrids shows real momentum.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that what's good for the environment will be good for business. That is the future.

But not the present or even immediate future. Hybrid sales are off by significantly higher percentage than overall car sales right now. I think that shows that most car buyers are not that committed to "what's good for environement." Again, look at what has happened - tax credit on the Prius is halved, gas prices drop 75 cents a gallon, and sudddenly these hard to get cars just two months ago are sitting on dealer lots ready to be purchased - including in the "strong market" of California.

Hate to say it - but saving the planet was probably not the motivation that drove many hybrid buyers to the showroom this summer. It was dollars. It was for me. While lower emissions are a good thing and I don't regret buying my Prius for one minute, it was high gas prices and HOV lane access that got me interested in looking at the Prius and HCH. Along with the tax credit, it was easy to say that it wouldn't really cost me any more to buy a green car. But without the tax credits, and if gas drops to $2 or less, the math could make show higher cost of ownership on the Prius and other hybrids at their current selling prices.

Honda and Toyota do blaze trails in this area - not just with cars - So I have to give them credit. But I don't think that because Toyota and Honda have the coolest hybrids, that everyone else should be building the same thing. I think GM is doing a good thing with their cheaper hybrid design that just uses a big, belt driven motor generator to achieve substantial effciency gains. But GM's is less expensive and simpler than the HSD.

But GM got slammed by folks over at "green hybrids." People saying that they aren't building real hybrids and shouldn't be given any credit for anything. What will create real momentum in hybrids is the performance, not the efficiency. Build a hybrid Corvette that still goes like hell but has a fraction of the emissions and get maybe just 15% better gas mileage. Hybrid trucks and SUVs that are intended to get better gas mileage even while towing a boat. People will save the planet if they still find what they want in the gas pedal and it doesn't double their car payment.

First, the subsidy doesn't go to Toyota. They do make money with each Prii sold, but you're right, they probably sell easier with the tax credit.

It is a subsidy, albeit indirect. Toyota is the ultimate beneficiary. The customer gets a $3000 benefit for buying a Prius, but Toyota is the one paying it out. Without that benefit, many of these cars probably wouldn't have been sold. What is amounts to is the tax payers paid for what... 12% of my Prius so that Toyota wouldn't lose money. That's a subsidy.

But keep in mind that the tax credit is a new thing, it was a much smaller incentive for buyers of 2004 and 2005 Prii, yet those were backordered as well. I think people who were debating about the Prius decided they'd better buy one in the early summer, before the tax credit was halved. So it's more of a bump up falling back to normal levels (need to find that post that has it listed month-by-month). The falling gas price was largely coincidental, IMO, but at any rate gas prices hit their low and are slowly going back up, if it makes a difference.

The people that purchased the early hyrbrids, before the tax incentives grew and gas was still relatively cheap were probably the very tiny part of the market that wanted one regardless.

Earlier Priuses and other hybrids where built in smaller numbers and the builders lobbied for the tax credits to help make increased production profitable. Again, the tax credit is a subsidy. And they are doing it again - Toyota is lobbying to restore/extend tax credits on hybrids after sales fell by well over 30% (for all hybrids) in just the last two months.

Since overall car sales are down by about 19% over the same period, we can assume that lower gas prices are not sending people to car dealers. But those that are going appear to be much less interested in hybrids.

Now that people who could buy a Prius sometime in the July-Nov time period have made their decision and new car buyers are in the market, I think Prius sales will continue their continuous up trend (averaged over time). And of course the 2008 model will be a redesign, which always draws people. I don't think Toyota will be reducing the price so much as dealers won't be able to charge MSRP anymore. I don't know of any other car that sold at MSRP for that long in those numbers. When the Nissan exec was saying that the hybrids need incentives to sell, he wasn't talking about the smaller hybrids, like the Prius and HCH. The Explorer, Lexus 400h and Accord hybrids fall in a different category, with a largely different target audience.

But that doesn't appear to be true. Sales of the Prius are off signicantly. And the fact the the Prius was selling without discounts was demand that was probably inflated by high $3 gas and fat tax credits. The tax credit on the Prius could easily be viewed by purchasers as a $3000 discount off the sticker. Didn't even have to negotiate. So the incentives appear to remain necessary. I have told a lot of people that if there was a gasoline only version of the Prius, it wouldn't sell for over $20K. Aside from the drvie train technology, the Prius is not a really remarkable car - A gas Prius would just be another stiff riding, medicore handling, noisy econobox. Sorry, that's just the way I see it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Curtis SAC @ Dec 8 2006, 04:06 PM) [snapback]359559[/snapback]</div>

1)Sounds Hypocritical to me.

Text from Original Link
“the automaker is only bringing it to market to comply with California's strict emissions regulations, a top Nissan official said Thursday.â€

NISSAN Press Release-bringing it to market for “The Environment"

“The 2007 Altima Hybrid is part of Nissan's ongoing efforts in the area of environmental protection and vehicle efficiency. The company's aim is to provide the right technology to the right market at the right time and right value to the customer."


2)Big deal. I always laugh at the celebrated and powerful when they drive their hybrids...

Might be a bigger deal than you think.

In the past, the Big 3 CEOs wouldn’t be caught dead in a Ford Escape or Saturn Vue. They realize they have to join the game. True, they themselves are hypocrits with the private jets, but they still have to join the game in business. Toyota’s success with hybrids and other fuel efficient gas cars are taking their #1 spot and closing their factories.

3)But not the present or even immediate future.

Again, once there are choices out there in hybrid vehicles besides just the few token hybrids we have at this moment, people will start buying. How can they be profitable just this second when there are hardly any out there yet? Let's give it a chance. The more competition there is, the less expensive these hybrids will be. Toyota intends a Prius at half the size and half the price. There is also a strong lobby to reinstate and expand Hybrid incentives by Toyota, and several other Hybrid organizations. There is even pressure by Congressmen themselves. This would certainly make a difference on getting more types of hybrids to market.

Gas

Oil reserves will not last indefinitely, especially with China and India’s large populations demands increasing at an alarming rate, and our “friendly†suppliers can turn off the spigot at any time as they already have, or jack up rates at any time, as they already have. Many of us are just tired of this. Hybrids are the best first step right now to get off gas entirely.

Environment

One does not have to buy a car specifically for the Environment, but is a worthy side effect. I wouldn’t put down a Prius owner just because they are actors, or CEOs, nor would I make the mistake of underestimating how many everyday hybrid owners want to drive a vehicle that lessens pollution, in addition to the obvious benefit of saving money on fuel. It’s still a step in the right direction.

Other Vehicles

I have posted a few articles on hybrid mid-sized trucks, a new fuel-efficient Jet by MIT, and recently NASCAR has added a Hybrid category for Performance racing, etc. Am all for any innovations in any type of vehicles that will reduce oil consumption. Every type of vehicle is now getting into new technology, finally. Many utility companies routinely use electric runabout cars, and New York City wants an all-hybrid Taxi fleet. I would say with all these developments, there is some momentum brewing.

That all being said, I think we are all on the same side.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Curtis SAC @ Dec 8 2006, 04:30 PM) [snapback]359569[/snapback]</div>

I'm not sure where you're getting your 30% or 19% numbers, but car sales are not supposed to be compared month to month. There are natural fluctuations every month and that's why the industry posts comparisons w/the same month in the previous year and also YTD (w/comparisons to the prior year).

Prius sales are down 1.2% YTD. Toyota vehicle sales are up 12.5% YTD. It's unfortunately a little hard to find a single summary in tabular form of car, light truck and total vehicle sales for each automaker every month. I can't seem to find one for November 06 right now.

Here's some current sales info.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/12/01/030424.html
http://www.autoinsidernews.com/category/auto-news/sales/

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stringmike @ Dec 8 2006, 12:05 PM) [snapback]359447[/snapback]</div>

http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/faq/index.asp#2

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Curtis SAC @ Dec 8 2006, 11:49 AM) [snapback]359425[/snapback]</div>

Still a drop in the bucket compared to the SUV subsidy which is 10x larger for more vehicles than the Prius's half a million number, and for many more years.

Gas

Oil reserves will not last indefinitely, especially with China and India’s large populations demands increasing at an alarming rate, and our “friendly†suppliers can turn off the spigot at any time as they already have, or jack up rates at any time, as they already have. Many of us are just tired of this. Hybrids are the best first step right now to get off gas entirely.


I guess we the americans are the ones using the maximum resources. Look at the public transport system in India and China. We here drive a pickup which gives around 10 MPG while people in those countries drive mostly 2 wheelers which gives 200 MPG. And if he is not driving his vehicle he rides public transport. In AMERICA we have every building airconditioned even when we dont need them. We have huge houses which are all temperature controlled 365 days a year. A normal power consumption for an Indian or chinese household is 100 KWhr per month while we use about 500-600 KWHR. Just compare power consumption for a ceiling fan to central air conditioner. This is just a small list !! I can go on and on.
I feel we need to first identify where we stand. Don't you??