"Just a heads UP", Making modifications to your new vehicle will void the warranty.

The stock batteries are designed not to fully charge or fully drain as this lets the batteries last longer.. I guess we will have to wait and see..

Is it worth voiding the 8yr 100k warranty on the ev side of the car and / or the mechanicle side warranties for this mod? I could see it if I did not have a warranty then sure mod away.. but having a battery pack go bad under warranty and being replaced for free vers having to pay $4500 - 6k out of pocket..
Hmmmm, I think I would rather keep that cash for something else. (In my opinion)

2000- 2005 PRIUS WARRANTY
Every Toyota Car, Truck and SUV is built to exceptional standards. And that's not idle boasting. We back it up with these Limited Warranty Coverages:

Basic Coverage: 36 months/36,000 miles (all components other than normal wear and maintenance items).

Hybrid-Related Component Coverage: Prius' hybrid-related components, including the HV battery, battery control module, hybrid control module and inverter with converter, are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty. Refer to applicable Owner's Warranty Information booklet for details.

Powertrain Coverage: 60 months/60,000 miles (engine, transmission/transaxle, front-wheel drive, rear-wheel drive, seatbelts and air bags).

Rust-Through Coverage: 60 months/unlimited miles (corrosion perforation of sheet metal).

Emissions Coverage: Coverages vary under Federal and California regulations. Refer to applicable Owner's Warranty Information booklet for details.

Accessories Coverage: Warranty coverage is for 12 months, regardless of mileage. If the part or accessory is installed during the New Vehicle Warranty period, coverage is for 12 months or the remainder of the applicable warranty coverage, whichever is greater, with the exception of car covers, which are covered for 12 months only.

You may be eligible for transportation assistance if it's necessary that your vehicle be kept overnight for repairs covered under warranty. Please see your authorized Toyota dealership for further details.

For complete details about Toyota's warranties, please visit www.toyota.com, refer to the applicable Owner's Warranty Information booklet or see your Toyota dealer.

Prius customers are covered by roadside assistance and road hazard insurance for 36 months/36,000 miles from the vehicle's in-service date. Examples of this service include flat tire, vehicle lockout and jumpstart. See your Toyota dealer for details.


I would see if the EV manufacturer will pay for the repairs on my car before I'd install anything.. Check Toyotas warranty regarding modifacations..
Although things may be different in Canada...

With that said, happy modifying..

I think that's a given that your warranty will be voided. But it won't matter if you wait until the 100,000 mile point, or if you wait until the NiMh batteries need replacing anyway due to wear. I'd like to see how the cost-benefit analysis breaks down with this modification-- much lower emissions but I don't think you could ever recover the cost of the mod through fuel savings, even at 5,000 dollars. How much does it cost to replace the NiMh batteries that are standard in the Prius, I wonder?

President Bush mentioned similar ideas in his State of the Union speech in January-- specifically he mentioned longer-lasting batteries for hybrids. These lithium-poly batteries hold a charge much better than the NiMh batteries, losing something like 1-2 percent of their charge over a six-month period. They are also lighter and more efficient, with much more capacity for the same weight compared to the standard NiMh batteries. But they are hazardous compared to NiMh batteries.

well given that i've driven 45k miles in 14months, this looks very promising to me. by the time it comes out, i should be past the 100k mark.

cool and all.. i mean.. i only drive around 6 miles to work.. with that small amount of time i probably average around 40mpg while driving good. So.. let's say it drops to 5k. Ok.. well how long would it last along with my current battery? I have a hard time justifying 5k dollars. So... let's say i do average around 500 miles per gallon... :blink: uh ... i guess i would have to travel only 5 miles a day. I only accelerate about 4 times up to around 45mph.. so .. i pass electric mode.. hmm.. so there goes the 500 mile per gallon. :mellow: hmm.. ok..

hmm...

Normal tank of gas cost me around $21 for roughly over 400 miles per fill. So.. if we do get between 200 and 300 miles per gallon :blink: when they say we could possibly get up to 500 miles per gallon :huh: ... so we'll say our new average is around 2k miles per tank. That would a long time to empy that gas tank on my normal commute. I would be cruising every weekend just to burn fuel.

So.. i guess i would save around.. oh.. 60 dollars per fill up.. at around 2k miles :huh: ... uh huh... car last.. .. er.. battery last .. oh.. 200k miles... If we only paid 5k for this product, then if it did last 200k miles.. a big IF there.. then i could possibly save around 6,000 Dollars at current price?.. so in the end i guess it could pay for itself.

But... uhh.. there is a lot more.. the fuel that went into building those.. shipping them.... In my opinion it's almost like taking money from here and just setting it over Here..... Plus... the beating it would put on our cars electrical system.. and our own battery system, along with warranty void :blink: wow.. a lot to take in right htere... let's take a breath....

You still have to take in effect what happens when these systems die.. if they even last 2k miles.. if you can even get 200 to 300mpg.. let's say we get only 120mpg.. then it doesn't even add up at all... the system would cost too much if any of these numbers are off...


But.. i guess that's the price we pay for putting money into future inventions/alternatives/plans.... the money we help build our future with.

Is it a price you're willing to put toward a greener future? if i had a retirement fund.. and a safety net.. and investments under my belt. and a place i could call home paid for.. then.. sure, i would. the fact remains i'm only 22 and trying to figure out this life.. so maybe this isn't the product for me... but i guess i know a lot of people who this product might suite... if they plan on not going over 40mph very often

Ok.. done with my opinion.. hope it made sense to some

What does the battery warranty matter if you no longer have the NiMH battery in the car? <_<

you might want to read about the mod first.

Target prices is a much better approach than the other company, which chose to focus on maximum efficiency instead.

Energy Outlook
Saturday, March 4, 2006
(Kinda Long Sorry)

Voiding the Warranty
my heart is with the folks who want to tinker with the way their Toyota Priuses use electricity, including the addition of a plug to recharge them from the grid. This sort of urge is what made this country great. And without innovators like this, providing a little external, unfunded R&D for Detroit and Yokohama, the evolution of cars would be slower than it is. But I must admit that I'm a little offended by the idea of someone charging $10,000 to add a plug and exchange the advanced nickel metal-hydride batteries of the Prius for a bunch of low-tech lead-acid batteries, just for the privilege of driving a few miles in pure electric mode.

I'm sure Toyota isn't kidding when they say this modification would void the warranty on these cars. Given the uncertain future maintenance needs of even a totally stock hybrid car, this risk should not be taken lightly. Notwithstanding the extra cost, swapping out the batteries and power controller (hardware and/or software) seems very likely to shorten the lifespan of of this very sophisticated and hardly inexpensive car.
Nor do the potential fuel savings justify this kind of investment, since $10,000 worth of gasoline at today's prices would take a factory Prius more than 150,000 miles. While it's true that a "plug hybrid" that was driven mostly short distances could stretch its gasoline usage to a truly remarkable degree--100 miles per gallon or more--the electricity it would use instead would be neither free nor non-polluting. The degree to which this would truly benefit the environment depends on the composition of the local grid power, which in many areas is fueled by coal.

Plug capability could make lots of sense for the next generation of hybrid cars, and I would encourage all of the carmakers to pursue this technology vigorously. But modifying an existing car that is already a paragon of fuel economy, greenhouse gas emissions reductions, and practically pollution-free driving makes little sense. It's a nice concept as an engineering prototype, but bad news for environmentally-focused consumers at this point.

TOYOTA

Cindy Knight, Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A: "We're exploring every avenue" for reducing reliance on petroleum, she says. (AUTOMOTIVE NEWS)
David Hermance, Toyota's executive engineer for environmental engineering: "We keep looking at the concept, and at some point it might be feasible, but it isn't there yet," (BUSINESS WEEK)
"They say this is the next great thing, but it just isn't" ..."The electric utilities really want to sell electricity and they want to sell it to the transportation sector because that expands their market. They have an agenda." ...And Mr. Hermance of Toyota said that batteries today were not durable enough to handle the wide range of charging up and charging down that a plug-in hybrid would need, calling that the most damaging thing you can do to a battery .... Mr. Hermance said the feature [EV Button] was disabled in Priuses sold in the United States because of complications it would have created in emissions-testing rules. (NY TIMES)
More recently (as PHEVs, PRIUS+ and EDRIVE have gotten considerable attention):

Ed LaRoque, National Manager for Advanced Technology Vehicles with Toyota Motor Sales, asked at sessions of the Clean Cities Conference (May 2005), "Will your hybrids be able to plug in to recharge for local travel?," replied, "We're listening."
"Customers," says Ed LaRocque, "are not telling us plug-in hybrids are something they'd like to see at no cost, let alone what we estimate would be an additional $15,000." (TIME MAGAZINE)
"The situation is evolving," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman in Southern California. "We're studying the matter, and keeping a careful eye on the projects happening around California."(SJ MERCURY NEWS)
Toyota spokeswoman Cindy Knight warned that EDrive's modifications will void the Prius' powertrain warranty, and said the company is "dubious" about a pluggable Prius. "Right now we don't see this as commercially viable," she said. "We think there need to be breakthroughs in battery technology to make it commercially viable." (WIRED)
Toyota spokeswoman Cindy Knight said, "We are watching [plug-in designs] with interest. It is probably within the range of solutions we would consider" eventually as an alternative power plant design. (LA TIMES)
"So you have a higher up-front cost, a heavier vehicle that gets less fuel economy with less performance, and the prospect of replacing the battery during [the car's] life," he says....Toyota's Hermance insists that, barring a spectacular breakthrough in battery chemistry, the cost of nickel-metal hydride batteries will remain around $1100/kWh for the foreseeable future. He concedes that the Prius's nickel-metal hydride battery packs have become significantly cheaper since Toyota began producing the car for the Japanese market in late 1997--power densities have gone up, allowing the car to get the same acceleration with a smaller battery pack. But energy density hasn't really improved, so energy storage remains as expensive as ever. (IEEE SPECTRUM)
Hermance says that while the PHEV concept has merit, it won't work with the current generation of lithium-ion batteries, which, while powerful, are both too expensive and temperamental for use in mass-production cars. Depending on their chemistry, lithium-ion batteries tend to get really hot -- thermal runaway, it's called—and, as the military well knows, to ignite. "The betting line of developers is that a lithium-ion battery of sufficient cost, durability and safety is three to five years away."...The guerrilla interest in PHEVs puts Toyota in an unfamiliar posture: on the defensive. "We're getting a lot of pressure from the public," says Cindy Knight, a company spokesperson. "We've shown that we have the energy chops to do it, so people say, 'Why don't we do it?'" (LA TIMES)
"Almost 60 per cent of U.S. electricity is generated by burning coal — so (we're) not sure plugging in cars in the end offers very much environmental benefit," the company says, adding that it may be "trading one form of emissions for another." (TORONTO STAR)
But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially frowned on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them. "They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what they can do about increasing fuel economy." (ASSOCIATED PRESS)
Toyota, known as the pioneer hybrid car company, could look at replacing their Nickel Metal Hydride battery with a Lithium-Ion battery, according to Dave Hermance, Chief Engineer for Environmental Issues for Toyota. Hermance speculates that "At the battery conference held in June in Hawaii it was said that Lithium Ion is about 3-5 years away for hybrids and another 5-8 years away to get to a rational price point." Laughing, Hermance adds, "of course, that’s not to say that we wouldn’t start at an irrational price point" Hermance also points out that the cost of Nickel has increased three-fold in the last five years, making the NiMH battery less attractive. (CARLIST.COM)
Official Statement

"Like you, we at Toyota are very interested in this technology. It is something we are studying for the future as one avenue to adding diversity to the transportation energy mix. Plug-in hybrids can further reduce petroleum consumption, improve fuel economy, possibly ease our dependence on foreign oil and potentially lower greenhouse gas emissions.That said, we also recognize that there are limitations to plug-in hybrids. As you well know, the true environmental impact of a plug-in depends on the source of the electrical charge. Coal-burning power plants do not lessen the greenhouse gas production and criteria pollutants increase. Secondly, to create a vehicle that meets consumers' needs, a breakthrough in battery technology in regard to capacity, durability and cost, is necessary. Outside experts predict this isn't likely to happen this decade...." (IRV MILLER, GROUP VP, CORPORATE COMMUNICATIONS, TOYOTA MOTOR SALES, INDIVIDUAL COMMUNICATION -- full text at CalCars News)
On the Defensive Re: Low-Mileage SUVs

"I think at some point you'll even have a button you can pick, mileage versus performance, because you're managing the system" said Jim Press, president and COO of Toyota Motor Sales USA, to a conference of auto executives (while announcing the he expected a quarter of US auto sales to be hybrids within 10 years): (NY TIMES)
"We have a vision of the driver being able to hook up their laptop to a port to alter that profile and get the driving characteristics that they want," said Cindy Knight, spokesperson for Toyota in Torrance, California. "That's an idea for the future. Right now it takes a horde of technicians to do that." (NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC)
"While hot rodders used to soup up their engines and pour on the chrome, they're now tinkering with computers to maximize their fuel mileage. It's a whole new passion for auto enthusiasts. We share that spirit of making the most cost-effective and most environmentally responsible vehicles possible." (IRV MILLER, ID ABOVE)
Responding to Published Rumors of Change

"Future advances in technology may, and I emphasize may, make a plug in hybrid feasible as a commercial product. However, this would take significant advances in battery technology and cost. And the overall environmental impact of the grid source of electrical power must also be considered....Overall, no change in our stance, no dramatic reversal of message and no imminent plug in hybrid announcement." (MIKE MICHELS, Corporate Manager, External Communications for Toyota Sales, USA to EVWORLD.)
Most Recent Responses

"Selling plug-in hybrids will also cause confusion with consumers and could hurt sales," Hermance said. Most people don't want the responsibility of recharging batteries every day. "Plus," he said, "manufacturers spent years convincing consumers that hybrids were not like the electric vehicles that failed to gain commercial acceptance." (WIRED)
Bill Reinert is Toyota National Alternate Fuel Vehicle manager. Reinert says any combustion engine can be made flex-fuel, so he agrees with the environmentalists and policy hawks that these cars can be built without too much trouble. But, he says, what no one yet knows is whether people would buy a plug-in flex fuel Camry or Highlander. "And while you see a lot of unsold SUVs on the lots, that doesn't necessarily mean that people are just going right to Priuses or flexible fuels. You could make a big miscalculation in assuming that's the case.... If you are burning coal in an antiquated coal-fired power plant to produce the electricity, you are really going backwards from an environmental point of view. And really, what you're doing is you are trading off petroleum for coal, and there's a lot of attendant problems with that in Appalachia and areas like that. (LIVING ON EARTH)
Bill Kwong, a spokesman for Toyota, says the company doesn't encourage buyers of its hybrids to use kits, made by some companies, that convert them into plug-ins, since "it cycles the batteries down way too deeply and shortens the life of the batteries." For that reason, he says Toyota isn't working on a plug-in hybrid. (WALL STREET JOURNAL)
"Thank you for contacting Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. We appreciate your interest in Toyota. We apologize; we do not currently have any announced plans to introduce a plug-in hybrid Toyota vehicle in the U.S. We are, however, aware of consumer interest in this type of vehicle and have documented your comments at our National Headquarters under file #200602070564." Another response: "We are, however, aware of consumer interest, and consistently strive to remain competitive in today's market. Your comments and interest in this type of vehicle have been documented at our National Headquarters, where they remain available to the appropriate departments." (TOYOTA "CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE" REPRESENTATIVES RESPONDING TO LETTER-WRITERS.)
"You can certainly make a vehicle that will run, but you can't necessarily make a vehicle that people will buy." Spokeswomen Cindy Knight says Toyota does not think the concept is ready for prime time, at least not until there's a technological breakthrough in batteries that are lighter, more durable and cheaper. She doesn't rule it out for Toyota, but she says that the company also has to keep certain marketing concerns in mind. "Toyota went to great lengths to address the drawbacks of battery vehicles so that people do not have to plug our hybrids in, and our customers tell us that that is one of the features they like about the vehicle, they don't have to plug it in." (NPR ALL THINGS CONSIDERED)
"Toyota is working into solving the many issues that must first be addressed to bring PHEV to the mass market, including: 1. battery technology; 2. cost; 3. regulatory EPA approval." (RESPONSE TO CONSUMER INQUIRIES AFTER NPR STORY)
"The mass market is not interested in plug-ins," says Cindy Knight, Toyota's environmental-communications administrator. "With the Prius, we've launched an enormous marketing campaign to say that it does no need to be plugged in, but people are still asking the dealers, "How long does it go on batteries?" It is definitely perceived as a negative… People see plugging in as a chore. Our engineers have taken a look [at what Frank has done]; they talk to those guys all the time," says Knight. "And we agree with proponents that we need to diversify our transportation-fuel mix, but we feel the battery technology is not there yet to meet mass-market needs … they're too expensive and not reliable. If we get closer to a tipping point and consumers are willing to pay more for the vehicle, that improves the equation for commercialization," says Toyota's Knight.

I read the article It looks impressive, but My only point here is if you modify a car that still has a warranty on it is it really worth it to have to pay the extra expence? In my book it is not. Everyone gets excited to hear of these Mods but are not advised that it could void thier warranty. Thats all I was trying to point out here.. (My 2 cents)


If it were me and my warranty was about to expire I would be right there with everyone else modding away :lol: .

Ok i'm stepping off the soap box and sitting down and will be quiet for the rest of this topic. :mellow:

$10,000? low-tech lead-acid?

Are you sure you don't mean mean $5,000 and high-tech Li-Ion Polymer? Did you read the article?

did anyone read the link?? especially the part that says this mod does not require any replacement or removal of existing components?

you guys are making me think i misread it... ohhhh...just a minute.


ok... read the article again and i suggest some of you might want to do the same

I think that's a given that your warranty will be voided. But it won't matter if you wait until the 100,000 mile point, or if you wait until the NiMh batteries need replacing anyway due to wear. I'd like to see how the cost-benefit analysis breaks down with this modification-- much lower emissions but I don't think you could ever recover the cost of the mod through fuel savings, even at 5,000 dollars. How much does it cost to replace the NiMh batteries that are standard in the Prius, I wonder?

The actual replacement cost could be around $8000.00, besides you should read all the article an comprehend the proposed modification, that really is not a modification, is an addition to the existing hardware acting independently to add more stored energy to the EV equipment this is solely an concise explanation

I read the article and looked at the pictures. It implies that you remove the spare tire and add their product to that space, plus that extra hidden compartment that some of us have, and their product augments the NiMH battery that come in our Prius. In other words, think like haveing a Pickup truck, and you place an extra fuel tank in the bed.

Personally, I plan on leaving my Hybrid Synergy system, MFD, gas tank, battery, stock till the warranty runs out, lest if some problem were to come up, it could not be construed to be caused by my mod.

The pictures, I found interesting. One picture shows a plug on the rear liftgate of the car. Another, which shows more of the car, does not have that plug on it, but it does have different wheels, which I think I read in other posts, seem to take more gas to turn.

{some quotes you included in your post}

>>....If you are burning coal in an antiquated coal-fired power plant to produce the electricity, you are really going backwards from an environmental point of view. And really, what you're doing is you are trading off petroleum for coal, and there's a lot of attendant problems with that in Appalachia and areas like that. (LIVING ON EARTH)

>>Bill Kwong, a spokesman for Toyota, says the company doesn't encourage buyers of its hybrids to use kits, made by some companies, that convert them into plug-ins, since "it cycles the batteries down way too deeply and shortens the life of the batteries." For that reason, he says Toyota isn't working on a plug-in hybrid. (WALL STREET JOURNAL)

>>"The mass market is not interested in plug-ins," says Cindy Knight, Toyota's environmental-communications administrator. "With the Prius, we've launched an enormous marketing campaign to say that it does no need to be plugged in, but people are still asking the dealers, "How long does it go on batteries?" It is definitely perceived as a negative… People see plugging in as a chore. Our engineers have taken a look [at what Frank has done]; they talk to those guys all the time," says Knight. "And we agree with proponents that we need to diversify our transportation-fuel mix, but we feel the battery technology is not there yet to meet mass-market needs … they're too expensive and not reliable. If we get closer to a tipping point and consumers are willing to pay more for the vehicle, that improves the equation for commercialization," says Toyota's Knight.

my comments:

These various spokespersons seem obsessively concerned about the 'marketing' aspects of these mods but innovation requires taking some risk. The attitude of low-risk marketing is what has made GM the dinosaur it is today, and could kill the best ideas in the evolution toward the best vehicle. If the marketing people are dictating to the industry scientists what kind of innovations to come up with then these car companies have lots more to worry about than just the technical barriers to success.

I'd rather see the industry throw the pan of spagetti up against the wall to see what sticks versus having a steering committee research which noodle is most likely to stick before picking it out to throw. What are these big car companies really afraid of?

The world's oil production capacity is going to be marginal for the indefinite forseeable future, unlike years past when there has been excess capacity. And with countries' economies interdependent due to lowered trade barriers, the whole world is affected by the disruption of oil supplies to a greater degree than we have seen in the past. Just the perception of a significant oil supply disruption in the world markets is enough to drive up the price of a barrel of crude about 10 dollars.

I read somewhere recently that if a consumer gets energy off the electric grid (not to mention in off-peak hours) it only costs him about 40 percent the cost of generating it with an internal combusition engine using fuel from the gas pump. There's one big reason for a consumer to want a plug-in hybrid. And just because some power plants are coal-fired doesn't mean they can't be clean-burning, with proper scrubbing equipment, not to mention other means of electrical grid power sources such as hydroelectric, wind, solar, and (gasp!) nuclear.

One wonders if we'll ever be able to talk about pushing the envelope without having to discuss the warranty every time. New FE technology needs to be discussed on its own merits sometimes. And sometimes we need to discuss warranty issues. I just wish we could talk about one or the other sometimes...

But then this comes from a guy who's driving an irreplaceable battery vehicle out of warranty.

An irreplaceable battery vehicle out of warranty that you could probably sell for more than you originally paid for it.

I just don't see you parting with it.

:lol: Very nice - very funny! I think it's a good thing that these other companies are stepping up to the plate, because they are willing and able to take the risk. In some ways, I can understand toyota's position, however. People are slow to accept and understand new technology, and plug-in isn't quite ready for widespread mass marketing yet - people have to get their heads around it and realize that they still don't have to plug it in, but the beauty is that they can! Many people are still a little suspicious of the regular hybrids.

That being said - warranty schwarranty. This is pretty exciting! I'm really interested in seeing how this works. But, I proabably won't have the spare cash to do this mod for the next 2 or 3 years. By then I should have the Prius paid off, and maybe then the battery will be small enough to allow the spare tire to be left in. I mean, I have roadside assistance, but it's still alot faster for me to change my own tire than to get towed or have a tire delivered, if that's even possible? Hopefully someone here will have the cash and the interest to purchase one of these kits and let us know how it performs! Some real world data from regular people would help alot in promoting this technology - and like hybrids - help spread the word and help people understand better how it works.

:blink: WTF?? :huh:

there is not enough real details in the article for me to really evaluate the product. the fact that they imply that the current on board technology would not be changed appears to make this mod very unintrusive.

but i think the better way to go would be to replace the existing battery system. this would increase range, reduce the weight penalty, etc.

as good as NiMH is, its not top of the line anymore. if it already hasnt happened (i suspect it has) a Li-Ion derivative will be developed shortly that will be more more powerful AND safe enough to use in a moving vehicle.

Only then do i see a real advancement. mitigating the price of the mod by trading in your current battery pack will help drive down costs, provide more batteries to put in Priuses that dont opt for the mod. ( it is conceivable that if you do a huge amount of freeway driving that this might only give you a "paltry" 50% increase making the extra cost a much harder pill to justify)

and as we all know, new technology will be expensive, it always is. but as it gets popular, the cost drops. generally there is a price cycle that new products go through. supply and demand controls new technology at first. i for one, believe that even at $5,000 this will be way over priced in a very short time. dont get me wrong, i am all for the plug in concept.