Of course they aren't mass produced, that would probably bring the price down and then the other thing is that I think new technologies tend to cost more and be for the rich initially. I don't think there is anything wrong with the rich paying R&D.

--des

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jkash @ Jul 22 2007, 01:08 AM) [snapback]483065[/snapback]</div>

Or wait until first quarter 2008 and get a Hymotion 20 mile ($5,000) or 40 mile ($10,000) installed in a few hours by Pat's Garage of San Francisco.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 22 2007, 01:48 AM) [snapback]483077[/snapback]</div>

I think Pat is going to find he is doing it for charity or going to have to raise his prices. Hybrids plus is charging too much but Pat is probobly not charging enough. I would be glad to pay $5000 for a plug in and will do it if someone closer to me <even a 600 mile drive> would do it for that price.

Sure he may make a 'profit' of $1000 before overhead expenses. Its not going to be enough for it to be an on going business.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hampdenwireless @ Jul 22 2007, 09:44 AM) [snapback]483159[/snapback]</div>

Assuming he's only capable of converting 3 cars per working day, on $1000 'profit' per car (even if it were before expenses) I suspect he'll make plenty. I also suspect there will be a sizable waiting list for the work.

But, yes, I think you're right anyway in that he should charge ever so slightly more (or obtain a better deal on the kits) to give him a more comfortable margin. I mean why not.....what is it they say about hay and sunshine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mwalsh @ Jul 22 2007, 02:41 PM) [snapback]483205[/snapback]</div>

I doubt a single person running a complete business would do more then one a day, maybe less.

If the equipment is assembled by someone else the profits will be lower, if one person needs to make the controllers , assemble the battery packs, etc it will be much slower. Extra employees mean extra costs.

Again I would gladly support someone selling at that kind of price. Its just hard to sustain as a business.

Just assume two employees earning $35,000 each. After normal costs of insurance, both sides of taxes, and all the fun other extras it usually runs close to $100,000 a year just for employees and associated costs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hampdenwireless @ Jul 22 2007, 11:54 AM) [snapback]483211[/snapback]</div>

There are like 5 guys who work at Pat's. And they service and repar Japanese cars (I think they specilaize in Honda and Acura IIRC). So the business model of adding the hybrid conversions at a reasonable cost is not necessarily a bad one.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hampdenwireless @ Jul 22 2007, 11:44 AM) [snapback]483159[/snapback]</div>

That's just for the cost of the kit. I'm not sure it includes the installation or not. Hymotion is in Canada and Pat's is the only licensed installer in California. They flew down to San Diego to do a conversion for two Prii for SDG&E. I'm sure SDG&E picked up the tab for that. Otherwise, not sure how it works.

But I doubt that price includes two guys from Pat's flying to wherever you are and installing the system. But whatever the cost is....it's still less than $24,000.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 22 2007, 12:05 PM) [snapback]483219[/snapback]</div>

That I can't see them doing (OK they did it for SDG&E, but that was just a publicity deal). But I suspect they'll be scheduling installs for anybody willing to make the trip to SFO and stick around for a day or so.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 22 2007, 01:05 PM) [snapback]483219[/snapback]</div>

Huh, I never noticed that Hymotion is in Canada. I wonder if there'll be a Canadian PHEV installer, too?

Cheaper to just buy the extra gas for the prius and wait for the technology to full mature. I know the prius is a dirty poluter if its not all electric. Prius is probably cleaner then the power plant though. 60k is still cheap for a car anyway, exp with the tax credits, you can't even buy a good hummer for 60k!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Elephanthead @ Jul 23 2007, 09:49 AM) [snapback]483545[/snapback]</div>

As far as I know:
1) If you count in the energy value of the electricity, nobody reports combine (gas+electric) "mileage" of 100 mpg or better. Figures I've seen cluster around the 85 mpg-equivalent that CalCars reports (which is cost basis -- the total fuel cost per mile is the same as a gas-only car getting 85 mpg.) Some get much less. That's impressive, but it isn't higher because the ICE runs in routine driving so the typical driver cannot tap pure EV miles. Further, at least some of the conversions do not allow the ICE to charge the battery while in PHEV mode, so that some efficient is lost during ICE operation.
2) The PHEV Prius that Argonne Labs tested ran dirtier than a stock Prius, because the engine and catalytic converter run colder than they would otherwise run. The tailpipe unburnt hydrocarbon was higher per mile in the PHEV prius than a stock Prius.
3) I thought the Hymotion conversion was 2 hours and $10K installed, but I see from their website that has not yet been finalized.
4) Clearly will not pay for itself in reduced gas use at the 85-mpg equivalent level. For 15,000 miles a year that's about $400 a year gas savings for the typical driver. But I would (and I think others might) buy it for non-economic reasons, or if (as in my case) a whole lot of current miles are low-speed city trips that should be accessible as all-EV miles.
5) Hymotion still lists a stinkin' 1 year warranty on the battery on their website. If that doesn't change, I'm certainly not going to get one.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Elephanthead @ Jul 23 2007, 09:49 AM) [snapback]483545[/snapback]</div>

Here in the UK, for every 1 kWh produced we emit on average 430 g of CO2.

A Prius PHEV can go 5 miles on 1 kWh of electricity, which equals 86 g of CO2 emissions per mile.

By contrast, the gasoline-only version emits 104 g/km, or 166 g/mile CO2.

So the CO2 emissions from power plants are much lower than from the equivalent miles driven from burning gasoline in the Prius engine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Jul 23 2007, 09:31 AM) [snapback]483604[/snapback]</div>

As a little research through multiple threads on this site will show you. Thanks for shooting this dis-information down AGAIN. It amazes me how often the same false arguments get trotted out as fact...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jkash @ Jul 22 2007, 12:08 AM) [snapback]483065[/snapback]</div>

When I researched PHEV's before buying my Prius, I really liked the end product these guys do. But at that pricing, it seems there will never be enough purchases to start bringing the price down. And here's a wild thought: If someone is rich enough to buy the conversion, and they really want to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, just buy 2 prius's and donate one to someone driving a 15-25 MPG car. You'll actually save more oil then using the conversion (above 35 mph). At least with me doing a 40 mile round-trip commute each workday, that's what it looks like.

So how much was the first univac computer ? How much could it do ? What about the first cell phones ?

You have to have some vision of the future. A PHEV cost a lot right now but all have targeted lower prices as they make more and more. calcars.org estimates Toyota could offer the option for 3-4K. I'd be glad to bet on this future option and pay about 10-12K to have my 05 Prius made into a plugin.

Also look at google that put in the largest solar system in the US, they also support V2G plugin hybrids and are getting 300-400. No one is hittingthem on the head to make these clean ideas come to life. They just see a better futrure instead of short term profits and greed. Give us more companies like that with vision.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Aces @ Jul 23 2007, 01:03 PM) [snapback]483711[/snapback]</div>

Can I be the first to say.....if one of you rich guys out there wants to do that, I will humbly accept!