Federal Energy Official: Plug the Prius into the Grid

Toyota ™ corporate communications exec Irv Miller wrote a post on July 26 about the company's move to supply plug-in versions of the Prius to the University of California, Berkeley, and UC Irvine for testing. In response, Jon Wellinghoff, a commissioner at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, posted a query on Toyota's Open Road blog about the car's vehicle-to-grid capability, or V2G in green car geek talk, which would allow owners to be compensated for generating electricity. "Is Toyota planning on incorporating this 'cashback' hybrid technology into the cars they produce for testing?" asked Wellinghoff. "Studies have demonstrated that PHEV with vehicle-to-grid capability can realize annual payments from electric grid operators of between $1,000 to $3,000. These cashback payments could completely offset the high cost of this technology. What is Toyota doing in this regard?"

full story below from Green Wombat

http://blogs.business2.com/greenwombat/200...al-energy-.html

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusGirlNJ @ Aug 6 2007, 01:20 PM) [snapback]491332[/snapback]</div>

PHEV's should not be thought of as a power generating money maker. The V2Grid is just a friendly way to smooth out the national grid. The only way you could make money off plugging in your Prius is if you have different rates for day and night electicity. You could charge at night and netmeter back in the day. No way it would be much money it though, the difference in rates is in the pennies. Burning gas to push back electricity into the grid would lose money.

Call me a number geek, but that's one thing I would love to see, is something beyond 99.9 MPG being displayed, I hope this wasn't simply a typo.

Also one thing that I wonder about, Toyota specifically removed the EV mode to get the PZEV status(??) or was it for warranty purposes(??), I wonder how this one, which "starts silent" will react, or is it a whole matter of because the car controls all the ev/ICE transitions it's still ok.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(etyler88 @ Aug 6 2007, 02:06 PM) [snapback]491369[/snapback]</div>

I'm not sure the world is ready for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. Even 1,000 watt hours for 8-10 hours at night would put an enormous drain on electricity grids. For 1,000,000 phev vehicles, you're looking at 1 billion watt hours per hour (ie. 1 gigawatt hour), or 10 gigawatt hours per 10 hours. "One gigawatt is enough to supply the electric demand of about one million average California homes." (http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/glossary/g.html).
And there's no way to ensure those cars would only be plugged in at night. When I come home from work at 5:00pm, my inclination would be to plug it in so that I have some juice if I need to use it later in the evening. But 5:00pm is around the peak of energy consumption. What happens if the grid is already overloaded with air conditioning?
There were 257 million vehicles in the U.S. in 2005, so if it became economical to drive a plug-in hybrid, you could expect an exponential demand and growth far beyond 1 million vehicles!
So what you could expect is that the states would begin to legislate (or tax heavily) a limit to the number of plug-in vehicles until the nation's generating capacity could catch up, which could take 10 years or more.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo @ Aug 6 2007, 03:13 PM) [snapback]491461[/snapback]</div>

You might be right, but something *has* to be done to change the status quo.

Also, I think the demand for plug in hybrids will ramp up slowly, as the Prius' did...we're talking about a subset of the hybrid buying public, after all.

I mean, very few people (present company excepted) cite "lack of the availability of a plug-in option" for not purchasing a hybrid in the first place.

Lots of people wouldn't even have a place to plug it in, either. If you park on the street or in most apartment or condo garages, for example, you probably wouldn't be interested in a plug-in, no matter how attractive it is in other respects.

There are also other estimates as to the impact on the power grid; some are as dire as you suggest, others less so.

I feel like we don't yet have all the answers...bringing a plug-in hybrid to market (in smaller quantities initially) will help us discover them, I hope. Otherwise, it'll all just be speculation.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo @ Aug 6 2007, 04:13 PM) [snapback]491461[/snapback]</div>

The power companies make money from selling power. This is claiming that the power companies would be unable to take your money since they would not have power to sell. This is not a problem. This is the one aspect of the US economic system that works, sometimes way too well....selling something for a profit. (i.e. electricity may get expensive, but it will not be unavailable for all that long.) The issue is where does all the CO2 generated from electric production get dumped. This is the big problem. And this requires individual, local, state, federal, and world efforts to solve. Please note that PHEV do not make this problem worst, they make it every so slightly better.

But for how long will it supply those homes? You're mixing and matching terms here.. gigwatt hour per hour (??) vs. gigawatt hour vs gigawatt. If I go by my PG&E bill's "baseline" i.e. the amount you can use before going into another bracket (supposed to represent an average), this month the baseline was set for 262 Kwh, so multiply that by 1 million homes, that's going to be 262 Gigawatt hours. Where 1 gigawatt hour is roughly 0.38% of the total "average" consumption of power 1 million homes will use in any given month... (also note I live in SF so my baseline is WAY lower than someplace that has A/C)

Hi Leo,

An organization has already done a study on the impact of plug-ins and electric cars on the electrical grid. They found that the grid had plenty of excess overnight capacity. Some of the V2G stuff is related to load shedding, by allowing the utility to broadcast a signal that automatically tells the cars to delay charging if the load in an area is too high. And, of course, who is going to plug in their car at 5 pm, if electricity cost twice as much then as at 9:00 pm and later? Kinda like buying at the 7-11, instead of on-sale at the local super market?

Yes, states will tax electricity for road building and maintenance. They are already badgering SVO (straight vegetable oil) users here in Illinois for not paying road taxes. McDonalds may be another source of road taxes before too long. Although, I hear there are ways to refresh the better cooking oils being used now, which will reduce that revenue / fuel stream considerably. States may want a meter on your car's electricity jack, which would then wirelessly upload the cars electricity consumption to the state computer when you drive under the I-Pass (or whatever they call it in your state) automatic toll road collection antennas.

Hi Again Leo,

I think the fact I left out is that it takes electricity to make gasoline. The study found out that for pure electric cars, the electricity to make a gallon of gas is very nearly the same amount of electricty as it takes to run an electric car the same mileage a gallon of gas would run the average car. Even though there are many times the energy in the gasoline, as in the electricity used to make it. This is because of the basic inefficiency of the internal combustion engine in the automobile / traffic system.

So, while it takes more electricty to charge the cars, nearly the same amount of electricity is displaced from gasoline production. And since refineries run all day, the peak load on the grid is reduced with allot of electric cars. Since most are charged after 5 pm. Rather than the refinery running at constant level through the afternoon peak of electricity usage.

Darrelldd has a website that goes into all of this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo @ Aug 6 2007, 02:13 PM) [snapback]491461[/snapback]</div>

I think that's a bit like saying the 90's weren't ready for the internet. They weren't, and most people had dial-up, but phone companies started laying fiber-optic lines, the cable companies began using their infrastructure as a conduit, and even satellite providers jumped into the mix. The market adjusted to increased demand (with some help from the government).

Robust demand for PHEV's would present a set of challenges, but I suspect we'd overcome them, and I don't think the PHEV craze will catch on overnight: it will build up over time.

On a side note, I wonder if the sale of PHEV's will lead to more people investing in solar power for their homes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo @ Aug 6 2007, 04:13 PM) [snapback]491461[/snapback]</div>

The Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (http://www.pnl.gov) did a study not too long ago that stated that the US' current electrical generation capacity is enough to power 80 percent of all the automobiles in the US. Somewhere on Prius chat, there is a link to this article. Sorry I don't have the exact link to the article, however, if I am not mistaken, they say more specifically that the off-peak generation capacity is enough to power 80 percent of all the automobiles in the US. They mean "all" not just plug-ins.

Think of it this way. An electrical generating plant cannot simply shut down at night when demand is low. They still produce electricity, but, according to the best of my understanding, that electrical energy must be dumped somewhere, and it is, essentially, wasted. In addition, they are still burning fuel. It thus goes without saying that the fuel burned for dumped electricity is wasted.

So, contrary to what you might think, there is at least one National Laboratory that says the current generating capacity is well able to handle the electricity required, and you can bet that the adoption of PHEVs will not reach 80 of all automobiles in the US overnight.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo @ Aug 6 2007, 04:13 PM) [snapback]491461[/snapback]</div>

Well, consider that it will take at least 10 years for 1,000,000 PHEVs to be on the road. It looks like it will actually take more like 15 years to hit 1M since there isn't even a factory-made phev from a big automaker yet. So our current count is nearly zero.

I think in 10-15 years, our energy companies may be a little more ready, don't you? Especially since they won't be blindsided. They're actually leading proponents of PHEVs. And it's not like one day we'll all wake up and there will be a newly discovered demand for electricity at night. It'll take time for that many cars to get into service and the energy companies are likely to see it happening.

So even if your concerns make sense (and I'm not passing judgement one way or the other), it looks like there is plenty of time for the world to get "ready for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles." I like our chances of a soft landing on this.

You know, with the discussion about electrical capacity and CAFE standards, why is it noone talks about the energy efficiency of new houses? Better insulation in a house would more than make up for the added load of plugging in a PHEV. Builders still use the same 4" outsicde walls with 4" batt insulation, and while there are more efficient systems out there, just going to 6" exterior walls with extra foam insulation on the outside could easily get the R-value from 13 to 30--huge savings. Getting new building standards should as important than reducing vehicle fuel usage.
There are also many ways to retrofit old homes--most have heard of CF bulbs, and insulation can be added during renovations.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Per @ Aug 7 2007, 06:25 PM) [snapback]492091[/snapback]</div>

Agreed.

There is another insulation technology that is out there that apparently someone is sitting on. The patent expires in a couple of years, so lets hope it becomes mainstream. It is Gas Filled Panels. The maximum R value per inch is 20. Given existing construction techniques, it should be trivial to construct a home with R60 walls. Heat from cooking and body heat would be enough to heat many homes. Why it is not mainstream already is beyond me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wiyosaya @ Aug 8 2007, 02:01 PM) [snapback]492629[/snapback]</div>

Patents are public record, and you can easily look online to see who holds the patent.

I hope what you say is true, I just blew cellulose into my attic for a mediocre R-19 .. but considering I had R-0 It is an improvement.