The tax credit is a little less then what I heard originally $7500. The volt would have to list for $40000 or less for me to buy one so with the rebate $35000 is the absolute max i would pay for one, and I was hoping to pay $30000.

The tax credit is almost written for Chevy and excludes the Aptera due to it only having three wheels. I would not have excluded by wheels but by safety rating. If the car was three stars or better in IIHS crash tests it could get the credit.

I attended a battery seminar at work a couple of weeks ago. One of the things that was said is that Lithium Ion batteries only have a typical lifetime of about 5 years. The L5 mod uses A123's Lithium Ion batteries - is there a difference in lifetime for A123 batteries? Anyone know?

Even at $7k, with a 5 year battery lifetime the cost seems prohibitive vs an ordinary Prius. Yep, Hymotion's own "plug-in calculator" confirms that for my situation.

I read online today that GM has factored in an in-warranty replacement for the lithium ion battery into the price of the Volt.

Calendar life is different for the different chemistries - don't know how the A123 batteries do on over time.

Edit: Some googling suggests a calendar life of 10 years for A123 batteries

It's a shame that it takes a government rebate/subsidy of $3,000 to get Americans to buy cars that will get us off of our dependence on foreign oil. I'm all for the rebate, don't get me wrong. It will clearly help increase sales. But, we shouldn't even be at this point. There should be so much demand for fuel-saving vehicles, that the concept of a rebate wouldn't even be an issue to discuss.

On second thought, I see the motive here. Toyota plans on producing the plug-in one way or another (due to demand). What the govt. is saying is that "if you make your battery pack even bigger, we will offer a $3000 rebate.

(In the future, competition will drive further increases in battery pack size)

I think the desire is there, but cost is a key factor. It would probably be more effective to add a couple of bucks tax per gallon gas than to steal another $3K/vehicle of our great-great-grandchildren's money. The tax revenue could be used to fund alternative energy research. Also, the car & battery manufacturers base their prices on what they think people will pay. The price just went up $3K.

About two months ago, the price for a pre-owned 2008 Prius had gone up $10K. There was no rebate. There was so much demand, that people were asking $10K over sticker price. I can search Yahoo Autos right now and the prices for pre-owned 2008 Prius are still over $3K.

Is there a waiting list for the Volt, yet? Are people lined up, like they are for the Prius?
If so, then GM can charge $60K initially for the Volt. It will give them more motivation to get the Volt to market. Later, down the road, they can come out with a "Volt mini" for $25K.

Only about 40,000 people. Not that many.

GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site Volt Waiting List
GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site Wait List Data

Thank you for the links.

A123Systems claims 10+ years.

The cells can take a lot of abuse as well. When discharged at 1C (5kW for 5kWh pack), it can take 7,000 cycles before the capacity is reduced to the 80% of brand new capacity. Prius needs about 15kW to maintain highway speed so the pack would need to discharge at 3C -- reducing the cycles. We don't know how many cycles can it do with 3C discharge rate.

I do not read governmentese very well, so does anybody disagree with my interpretation of the house bill that a battery upgrade will NOT be eligible for the rebate ?

scroll to the bottom of the page, and GM reports the *average* price on the enthused is willing to pay for the car as $31,571.30

Just GM BS. Notice they didn't post how many of the 40,000 people are willing to pay over $35,000, or over $40,000 ...

They did multiply average offer times number of people, as if sale of a partial Volt has any meaning.

My interpretations:

No, conversions do not qualify. The car must be built by an auto manufacturer and designed to be a plug-in.

If this survives the Senate and is signed by the President why would anyone expect it to be implemented any differently than the hybrid credit?

Warning: If you already have misc. tax credits don't bet money on being able to take the full plug in credit.

Prediction: Toyota's credit will expire years before GM's.

T2B5 emissions seems like another clear concession to GM. Last I knew every single GM hybrid was rated T2B5, while Honda's and Toyota's were down in the B2 or B3 range. Kind of surprised they didn't get the stronger language they seemed to be pushing for to exclude parallel hybrids.

Rob

Toyota may not send it's CEO to capital hill, but they wield considerable influence, not least through state representatives where Toyota is a major employer.

They are laughing all the way to the bank. I wonder if Toyota will immediately boost it's PHEV plans to 5 kWh. Seems an easy choice at first blush, but the subsidy is only for 60,000 vehicles. Maybe we will see the 3 KwH they planned, and a run of 5 Kwh too. The subsidy might be enough to cover the R&D.

I think we'll see exactly that. An increase of 1-2kWh in Li-ion would only add $2-3k to the cost of the vehicle. If they can offset that with the credit, and give their customers more range for the same net price I think they'll be all over that. Depending on how you read it though, I think they may only need 4kWh. At the top it clearly states that the credit increases by $200 for each kWh over 5, but at the bottom it says vehicles must have 4kWh to qualify. That implies that the credit is flat from 4-5kWh, then goes up from there. Given that the short term cost of Li-ion is well over $1k per kWh (if not close to $2k) the additional $200/kWh credit won't come close to offsetting the additional cost of a larger pack. I'd actually call that a victory for Toyota and anyone else working on a small pack. They will be able to offer a much better $/range after the credit.

If Toyota is really smart, they will launch the first PHEVs with 4-5kWh of NimH. Their current modules are 46Wh/kg, which would put the batteries at 192-240 lbs. There will be some additional overhead for the pack itself, but that should be very workable. State of the art NimH (Nilar) is now reaching 55Wh/kg, so they may be able to do even better. The primary benefit is that NimH should be at least half the cost of Li-ion. Nilar's are already $1/kWh quantity one retail, probably <$500/kWh in volume. Presumably if Toyota/PanasonicEV are making their own they can do it for even cheaper. They would stand an excellent chance of being able to offer a pack with similar range to the Hymotion (~15 miles EV) with little to no cost to the buyer beyond what the credit covers. That would put a PHEV15 Prius at about $25k or less, compared to $35k+ after credit for a GM PHEV40. The extra range would be nice, but the Prius will still be larger, probably faster, probably lower emissions, probably have better overall efficiency, and cost $10k+ less. Not good news for GM IMHO.

Rob

What size battery does the NiMH Chevron patents kick in ?

I believe 8 amp hour. Since NiMH chemistry produces 1.2 V, you can't make a cell with more than 9.5 Watt-hour. If Toyota were to make 7.9999 AH cells, they'll need at least 521 of them to make 5kWh pack.

Current Prius has 168 cells with 6.5 AH.