Prius C outsells Volt, Nissan in 3 days

As a rule no private user needs a pick-up. But people have interests for which pick-ups are practical and relatively cheap: they can tow and carry large and heavy loads.

It's all a balance on additional trips and miles "needed", or the cost of rental or delivery. It's really the same principle that can make running a BEV more expensive than an HEV.

In their case, the reasoning you were given was ironic. Wood and coal are "divisible loads" which means that in bulk carriage haulage wouldn't be allowed to be overweight, yet they've supposedly up-sized their vehicles for it.

It sounds like an excuse to me. As spwolf notes, people like to drive them. I disagree with their priorities, but we drive thousands of miles each year just eating out so I'm not going to bitch too much.

While it's disappointing, it's only annoying when people complain about the price of gas or expect the government to support or encourage their economically damaging and inefficient use of resources.

 

With carbon driving global warming rearranging deck chairs on the titanic is fine, there won'd be icebergs.


I worked for NASA (3 levels below Jim Henson) in the early climate modeling days. I have no doubts about global warming and carbon's role. But I have no idea what the implications of warming are. It will be a different world, don't know if it will be better (longer growing seasons in many areas + increase co2 good for plant growth), or worse (too many wild swings in weather, reduced coast lines). At least until the change is so great that it messes with the "Ocean Conveyor Belt", its really hard to tell if its good or bad.

That said, why take the risk we cannot undo until we have better models/understanding. We can always burn coal in 24th century if we want more carbon and global warming. Much harder to sequester it.

Been there, done that. Also why I continue to push for larger EV range.. the owner gets a choice they never get with the Prius C. Prius C may be better than average on carbon, but not even close if one buys renewable energy which can really only happen with a PHEV or BEV, or by running bio-based fuels.

 

I'm curious how you view ranching and farming in terms of not needing a pickup. hauling either a quad or towing a horse trailer is pretty much a necessity as is the ability to haul hay/feed, irrigation equipment, dead livestock, heavy equipment (tractors, trailers) and dozens of other uses. You also need ground clearance to be able to drive through grasslands without catching everything on fire or bottoming out. I work with these guys every week and a good pickup is a very useful too. It's kind of like trying to take a nut off a bolt with a screwdriver. You may get the job done but it will take much long (cost a lot of money) and will likely damage something.

 

I actually tried to picture Jim Hensen and his Muppets working at NASA. LOL

 

It was the wrong adjective. I meant "personal": not used for business purposes. If you're a rancher or farmer it's business use. (That's somebody actively using land in an economic way for production, whether for subsistence or profit).

Of course, if you own a vehicle for business use that is also available for personal use it generally weighs in favor of using the business vehicle because of the burden of registration, excise taxes and insurance.

 

Gotcha.

 

I have a friend who heats his home with wood. His pickup is used to carry cut logs to his house where he has a log splitter. Not a business use, but still . . .

Back to topic, I think the title of this thread is meant to say that the sales of the Prius c are remarkable while the sales of Volts are so so. I'm not familiar with Leaf availability but I believe they sell as fast as they become available (based on what the local dealer told me, i.e., it would take 4 to 6 weeks for delivery if I didn't buy the silver 2011 he had on the lot).

 

	Column 1
0	Fiesta 5518
1	Focus 23350
2	Mazda2 2701
3	Mazda3 11275
4	Rio 3598
5	Forte 5706
6	Accent 5806
7	Elantra 13820
8	Versa 10190
9	Sentra 10605
10	Yaris 3612
11	Corolla 22151
12	Fit 4227
13	CR-Z 466
14	Insight 773
15	Civic 26346
16	HCH 741
17	Sonic 7900
18	Cruze 20427

These are the Feb. 2012 sales of B and C segment cars. Toyota is marketing the Prius c as an entry level hybrid for first time new car buyers. So these are the numbers it should be honestly compared to.

The c is going to smoke the other hybrids on that list, and will likely do so without the new model rush. It might even beat the B and some of the Cs this month and next. After that, it depends on gas prices and supply. Once the newness wears off, monthly numbers will fall in line with the rest of the Bs. I think its the best in that segment, but the Versa and Accent start in the $11k to$14k range. So it'll compete with slightly larger B cars and the lower Prius l trims.

The Prius, liftback and v, sold 20593 last month. Less than the Corolla, Civic, and Focus with the Cruze nipping at its heals. Hybrids still aren't a major segment. While the c will bring new buyers to the segment and Toyota, it will also take them from the Prius l and Corolla pools.

Those with the means, which also includes access for charging, for the Volt or Leaf aren't going to look at the c. They have the Camry, Fusion, other Prii, and Lexus hybrids to consider for green cars. There's even BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche hybrids they might consider. The people buying the Volt and Leaf want more than a hybrid though. They want to plug in. Or HOV access.

Whatever it is, it is something the Prius c simply doesn't offer. What they offer is something the vast majority of the car buying public doesn't want or is unwilling to pay current prices for. Plug ins are more narrow niche than hybrids. Comparing their sales to what is hoped to be a mainstream car is silly and merely PR. If an honest look at public buying trends, why no mention of the Prius PHV then?

 

lol... you guys are funny.

Are you trying to say that Prius selling 20k vehicles that start at 24k compared to Corolla that starts at 16k, is bad?

Poor Toyota, Prius is an failure!

 

Um, no.

I'm saying comparing c sales to Volt and Leaf ones is irrelevant, and isn't a mark of any real success.

Despite the Prius' success, it and all hybrids are still a small part of the market. Good, it sold nearly has many as the cheaper Corolla. The Camry, for around the same price, sold over 30k last month. The gen2 Prius had a high demand and waiting lists at first, and yet the Camry is still whooping it in sales. I'm just showing the c's competition is going to be stiff, and they aren't standing still.

Yes, your kid can outrun the crippled kids down the street, but the real race is against the high school track team.

 

They really can't say "hybrid sales are down" based on current market share. There are two kinds of buyer:
1) People buying their first cars
2) People replacing old cars

How is the share changing for first-time buyers?

How is the share changing for people replacing old cars? (Well, given that the average age of vehicle is 10 years, I'd suggest that it's up in this group.)

 

Interesting point. My previous car purchase was in 1995, very pre-prius. When I started thinking about replacing it I considered all the hybrids and tested Prius and lexus multiple times. Even tried a PHEV kit enhanced prius. Even rented a prius for a week to see if I could live with it. (My Del Sol was geting 33-37mpg) and I really did not want to get up the convertible, so never pulled the trigger). Test drove the Volt, and 2 weeks later drove to TX to get it as it was not yet on sale in CO.

 

the fact that you are comparing Camry sales (still $2k cheaper than Prius), to Prius sales, shows how big success Prius is. Volt will never have sales similar to any of these models. Heck, will Volt still be in production 2-3 years from now?

With Toyota producing 1.1 million hybrids this year world wide, and 25% of that going to USA (at least), you can say hybrids are mainstream right now. Heck, Toyota Hybrids will outsell many brands this year... they will come really close to outselling Mazda, Mercedes-Benz and BMW, worldwide.

Compared to that Volt numbers are tiny and they are not going up. It is technology that is not going anywhere. Dead in the water. If there is Volt #2, it will certainly not use the same "range extender" technology because it makes no sense, it was pure marketing decision to be able to claim difference to Prius, as in GM can do things better, and than, as GM always does, fail spectacularly.

 

report is actually old and is for January... in February Hybrids shot up 55% compared to last year, and 66% compared to January when they didnt have enough cars on the lots.

They were 3.16% of the market. Of course, majority of that was from Toyota, so for Hybrid share to go above 3.5% of OVERALL market, it is not possible for Toyota to do it themselves. Ford and Honda need to put their money where their mouth is and start actually selling some hybrids and not just PRing them.

February 2012 Dashboard | Hybrid Cars

 

nobody thinks it is funny that we are quoting NPR in Prius chat? Not to mention that their info was bogus, complimentary to their agenda.

With Prius c and more Camry Hybrids on the way, we could see Hybrids going over 40k in March, but for significantly bigger numbers, we need other manufacturers to sell them as well.

Toyota Europe estimates that hybrid share in Europe will be 20% of Toyota sales in 2015, and I think thats a platform of what they can do themselves... that means around 2 million sales for Toyota Hybrids in 2015, and that assumes most of their models having Hybrid variants (addition of Rav4 and Avensis in Europe).

p.s. In the same article he mentioned 4800 sales for Prius PHEV in 2012 and 6800 in 2013.

 

There could be any number of reasons the Volt is not doing nearly as well / is a "failure" - in terms of number sold vs. number EXPECTED to be sold - but I had a chance to see one / ride in one a couple of months ago, and IMMEDIATELY dismissed it from my "I might buy one of these one day" list. Why?

Item 1 ... PRICE; the STARTING price is approx. $13K more than what I paid for our "Package 3" '08 Prius BEFORE adding taxes-n-such to the Volt's final cost.

Item 2 ... VERSATILITY; minimal trunk space as compared to the Prius lift-back whenever there might be rear-passengers.

Item 3 ... TOTAL Passenger Space; The Prius can seat five, whereas the Volt can seat no more than four due to the battery lay-out.

Item 4 ... REAR Passenger Room; if there are two people in the front seats of the Volt who are, say, 6'-1" tall or so, their seat position would leave virtually ZERO leg room for anyone in the rear seats.

Item 5 ... I frequently make quite lengthy highway trips. The Volt, in theory, gets 37 mpg on the highway, whereas I've frequently gotten more than 50 mpg on such trips in the Prius.

Item 6 ... The Volt requires premium gasoline, while the Prius uses "regular" ...

I believe there must be LOTS of people who might want to transport 5 people on occasion, who might have two-or-more fairly tall people in their family, who might want more than 13 (?) cubic feet of "trunk" space, and who might frequently make lengthy highway trips. And I believe MOST of those people, upon looking at the Volt, would automatically and immediately "disqualify" it from their list of cars being considered ...

LASTLY: as a more-or-less "pure" commuting vehicle with one-or-two people and up to 20 miles each way, it's PROBABLY about "the best thing out there" right now ( with the exception of the Leaf or similarly-ranged, electric vehicle perhaps? ) ... but even then, that PRICE ...

 

Where oh where did I say the Prius was not a success?

The c will be a success. Comparing its sales to two pricier cars, one of which is closer in size to its larger sibling, and both with a much narrower niche in the market, is bogus. A comparison of pure fluffery. An exercise in getting the fans excited. It's as valid as comparing c sales to Corvettes and Zs.

Which is to say it tells you nothing more on c's success than just looking at its sales numbers. If more in depth analyst is wanted to gauge its success, then you are going to have to look at sales numbers of the models car shoppers are actually comparing the c too.

 

The EPA highway estimate is 40 mpg for the Volt, not 37.

I normally get 41-42 mpg on actual long drives apart from my initial 39-43 highway miles on my initial battery charge plus any opportunity charges along the way or at my destination for multi-day trips.

 

If you look at the sticker, JeffN, it states EPA rates the MPG at 37-38 mpg on gas. I believe this is only true if the Volt had ran its battery down low enough to force the Gas engine to be the generator, but most Volt drivers rarely run it down to the ground, to my knowledge, to really make the Gas engine do majority of the power generation.

From my own experience looking at the Volt, the space does not seem to be 'less' than the Prius standard. It looks about the same to me with regards to the cargo space. The Rear passenger area, on the other hand, does seem a bit slimmer than the Prius. Definitely slimmer than the Prius v.

My feelings about the Volt is that right now, it is entering a very immature market. The immaturity is the lack of adoption of any basic electrical infrastructure to make EV vehicles seem worth going to. The Volt and the Prius Plugin are at least able to survive without plugging in due to the gas engine fall over, but the Leaf, for instance, will be hampered by the lack of a lot of L2 chargers and places where one would normally park not having convenient places to charge.

At the moment, until the charging infrastructure matures more, people will still feel uncertain in getting a EV based vehicle due to the price and just the range in which some of them can go. Hopefully, there will be more places setting up EV charging points soon.

 

EPA rates Volt gas usage (when using it) at 40 highway, 35 city, for a combined 37. Prius c is rated at 53/46 mpg city/highway. Prius rated at 51 city, 48 highway. (E.g. see Compare Side-by-Side)

But Keiichi is correct that most Volt drivers do not use the ICE that frequently, its about 70% EV and 30% CS over 4million miles at Volt Stats! Tracking real world usage of Chevy Volts in the wild....