Prius Myths and their Rebuttals

Cite sources please.

Producing new vehicles is toxic. Producing lead acid batteries, such as the battery under the hood of your Dakota, is VERY toxic. All that chrome on your truck is toxic. The air bag system has fairly nasty end-of-life toxic issues

Now if you want to argue chemistry, please feel free to do so. Among other things, I have a B.Sc. in Chemical Engineering. But we still haven't touched on the most toxic aspect of most vehicles

Routine oil changes

The oil "recycling" program is far from perfect. A lot of used oil ends up in the environment, some of it on purpose.

The ignitor module, airbag assembly, etc are toxic. That is my point

Around 4 years ago I helped a co-worker build a '67 Chevy C-10. Edelbrock crate motor, TCI crate TH400, Dynatrac Pro60 rear with 3.54's and a Detroit Locker, and a BeCool aluminum rad.

The best part is that Edelbrock crate motor, has MSD ignition and an Edelbrock carb. He puts maybe 300 miles a year on it, only in summer on sunny days. The daily driver is a 2000 Corolla

No way he would want to use that old Chevy for a daily driver. It's reliable, easy to tune and fix, but he is saving it for a toy

So you don't want clean air?

I frequently travel to India and China on business. Cities in India and China are so polluted, makes the air in Mexico City clean by comparison

So you can thank those mandatory clean air regulations for giving us clean air. I'm amazed you didn't look into WHY our air got cleaner. How did you think it happened? Magic??

Crown Victoria Police Interceptor DESIGN PROBLEM

FirePanel Advantages - Vehicular Fire Protection Systems

Mind explaining why Ford had to retrofit blast panels to that gas tank, and why it now has a fire suppression system on the gas tank? Perhaps the families of cops burned to death suing them, much like the Pinto?

So why did a major taxi operator in Winnipeg, a climate that can dip to -42 in winter, replace most of their Crown Vics with Prius?

Explain why the Prius is preferred in demanding taxi use up here. Explain why the Crown Vic isn't.

Yes, that is MY job, not YOUR job. I have been a consultant to petroleum exploration, petrochemicals, applied and theoretical research at ARPA, and defense industries, for over 12 years now.

Perhaps you would like to explain to me what YOUR qualifications are? What exactly are you "studying" in college?

I'd suggest Chemical Engineering, but I'm biased in support of that industry anyway. Computer Science. Make sure you get at least a minor in math, you'll need it. Then you might be able to compete with the Asians

We used to have education in this country, and we still do at universities. But it seems Asian students are taking all the "hard" classes.

Want to know why things suck? Watch this clip

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q]YouTube - George Carlin ~ The American Dream[/ame]

But you will probably deny it

Want to know why I'm a consulting engineer with a six figure salary? Because I'm not a fool. How much do YOU make?

No way $5 would cover it, more like $9 a gallon. I find it ironic how former CIA director Woolsey drives a Prius, which has a bumper sticker "Bin Laden hates this car"

Hybrid Cars: Former CIA Chief: Why all Americans should drive a Prius

I won't even get into how the real source of terrorism was untouched. I won't even get into how our misguided push for "democracy" in the Mid East has now destabalized the entire region. Ironic that, our supply of cheap Mid East oil is threatened by the very thing that was supposed to secure it

The justification for the invasion, WMD's, turned out to be a lie

'Curveball': I lied about WMD to hasten Iraq war - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com

Seems to me, most of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia. Why didn't we bomb the shit out of THEM instead?

But the truth, whether about a false pretense to invasion or a Prius car, isn't well received by those who refuse to believe it

To quote Emeril Lagasse

BAM!

If you have 2 free hours this is a good one to watch too.

:: Download Manufacturing Consent for Free. Watch Manufacturing Consent Online with Other Documentary Films and Free Movies. ::

20% of the population is relatively educated, articulate, and plays some force in decision making.

80% of the population is supposed to follow orders and not think.

Which group are you in?

Explain what your family in Iraq has to do with the actual reasons w invaded Iraq.

Remember me ? I'm the guy who has been in war in the mideast. Do not try to BS me kiddo.

Mine didn't rot out (80's made-in-America Accord, swapped for this Prius), spouse's still hasn't rotted out (80's Integra, just a fancied up Civic), and I still see plenty more of both on our roads. F8L's description is spot on for my region.

My last Ford was just two years older than that Accord. When I dumped it at age 13 (it, not me), hardly any of its siblings were still on our roads. There were more of the Accord's siblings still running around here at age 23. Integra's too.

Wow. You really were born just yesterday.

If we consumed half of our current oil, none of us would have family or coworkers fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan.

The income for a family is closer to 50k. Also this was in 2000, I'm sure its higher now.

How is a blue collar working town "ghetto"? You just sound like another pretentious prick. Maybe next time you buy something think of where it was made and distributed, could be from my town.

If you wanted a hybrid, again, theres something wrong with you. What kid dosent want a GOOD LOOKING car, thats fast?

Keep talking about the money. Look, I live a life thats fine by me, am I rich, no, but I get buy, I work 2 jobs to help my mother and brother out, do I mind? No, it makes me more of a person. Hard work never hurt nobody.

Where do I start? Well first and foremost, my Dakota has no chrome, itsa sport package (blacked out).

You mean the same regulations that send companies packing? To China, India, and mexico?

I make around 17k a year. I go to school from 8-3 monday through friday. I also work 2 jobs at 9.00 an hour.

Criminal Justice, I'd like to become a policeman.

Explain why here in Chicago, theres Crown Vic's ALL OVER? Oh and the police department just bought new Tahoes. Even worse gas mileage then a Crown Vic.

The 80% refuse to believe this. WHich is why when they are presented with the Carlin video, they also refuse to believe anything he said

No it is not. Per capita $17K, "family" by census data, $40K per 2008. The data provided by him is from current Bureau of Labor Statistics and Census which you are free to look up yourself

You're joking, right? That's like saying what kid doesn't want to smoke crack

True that. Almost 100% of people on this forum work hard

You seem to have some sort of problem with those who make +100K a year. Those of us on this forum who make that much, are scientists and engineers

I suppose that means you hate all scientists and engineers.

Well, unless you can suggest a better way of doing something, perhaps you are part of the problem and not part of the solution

I didn't get to where I was by being born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I came from a poor background. Difference is, my folks drilled into me the only way to get out of being poor was to get an education, and lots of it too

Seems they were right

There is a BIG problem in both the United States and Canada with attitudes and education. True that our mainstream media dumbs everything down, and invents very elaborate Conspiracy Theories to explain what are problems of lack of understanding

They only way to understand true energy supply and demand is to be proficient in Calculus. If you are not or refuse to be, too bad so sad

You claim the solution is "drill baby drill." I claim the cost of our In Continent oil is so high, we would have a worse problem if forced to use domestic oil only. I have experience in the industry, in a consulting role

You do not

So, who is right and who is wrong?

Where do I start?

Based on curb weight alone, your Dakota has more total nickel content that a Prius, batteries included. Why can't you understand that?

Why can't you directly answer the points I have raised? Why is it you feel there are simple solutions to very complex problems?

They only "conspiracy" out there doesn't involve the Prius, doesn't involve the "Japs" or "Jews," it simply involves people who are ignorant and refuse to learn

Countries like India and China are cranking out far more Ph.D.'s every year than we are cranking out high school graduates.

Explain to me why our universities are filled with Asians taking all the "hard" courses, you know, those involving math and other "hard" things, while the white kids are jagging off somewhere?

What I would like to know, are you part of the problem or part of the solution?

Can you explain why neither democrats or republicans have had an Energy Policy? Can you explain why the banking industry was deregulated to the point the Mortgage Meltdown fuster cluck happened?

Can you explain to me why the resultant Mortgage Meltdown and financial crisis caused a very bad global recession?

Care to explain why our city cores have turned into crime ridden sewers?

Can YOU explain that?

So you are all for repealing the EPA and us having air quality same as cities in India and China. Thank you for clarifying your position

You are making the median for the area you live in. Good for you actually having initiative to work. Make sure to avoid debt, as debt is the one thing that will sink you

However, with an attitude like that I have to wonder what sort of cop you'd make. I suppose you could always pull over a Prius driver and shoot them. Or maybe PIT them

I guess you simply refused to go to the links I provided

Ford had to retrofit those CVPI's to protect the gas tank. Private companies have also offered protective panels and fire suppression for the same gas tanks for those departments that wanted to offer more protection for their officers

Good for the police department ordering more Tahoe's. Helps out Government Motors. Speaking of which, the police department could care less about fuel economy as they are government, the taxpayer picks up the tab

There are always people turning 16 and in need of a car. Your Daktoa gets passed down the line to the poor who cannot afford anything more efficient or to those who truly need a truck like you claim to. Eventually the vehicle is scrapped and is replaced by a newer, cleaner, more efficient car because 5-10yrs ago someone had the foresight to purchase it and is now moving on to something even cleaner and more efficient. As time goes by, more of the dirty inefficient vehicles are removed from our roadways. People direct the market with their purchases. When people continue to lust for high horsepower tank-like vehicles, the manufactures will continue to build them. When people lust for high efficiency clean-running vehicles then the manufactures build them. In this way YOU decide which way our society evolves. Building news cars is never good for the environment or human health but in some cases, building a new car and getting a piece of shit off the road and recycled sooner is good for everyone.

This must be a function of demographics. I live in a highly educated area so I see MANY more efficient cars. Most are new but the old ones are definitely not the iron tanks which you describe. The only people who drive those live in the hood or are approaching an age at which their license should be revoked. There are also a lot of new SUVs and trucks that are not efficient BUT have much cleaner emissions ratings than the 1970s-1980s tanks you like so much.

Agreed, not a great example.

Again, this may be a demographic issue. I'd love to see how these people live their lives and what their retirement portfolio looks like. I think I may have seen these people on episodes of COPS, and My Big Redneck Wedding. In all seriousness some people use these for huntin' rigs which makes perfect sense but they also have a newer cleaner running car as a daily driver. I do land management and ecological restoration so I work with a lot of rural folks in our AG community so I'm very familiar with blue collar communities.

I never said you did. I simply made a reference to ghettos and the poor decisions made by the people who tend to live there.

It comes across to you as such because you don't know any better and probably don't understand half of what we are talking about. Part of being an American should be doing what is best for your nation and community NOT simply doing whatever the hell you feel like regardless of your impact on others. A real American cares and helps everyone, not just those who agree with their politics and religious beliefs. Please capitalize American from now one too. It's a proper noun and something you should be proud of.

I'll finish this post later. I have work to do.

Gotta admit, this is fun

But this 1996DD kid is a serious indication of why this country jumped the rails. Yep, let's blame guvmint, let's blame emissions regulations, maybe we should throw in a few Jews and n*****s while we're at it

So us undereducated white folk can feel good about being among the dumber Western Nation folks

Academic Failure - International Test Scores - Poor TIMSS Results

New report ranks U.S. teens 29th in science worldwide / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

So why wouldn't all those high tech jobs be found everywhere BUT here!?

The irony is that any mention of "hard" stuff - you know, calculus, physics, chemical engineering - they tune out. Which is why in the average university, the "hard" classes are filled with Asians, not trailer trash

On the plus side, those of us white folks who DID manage to get a decent educaiton, can pretty much name our price

I wonder if at the Dakota forum they still believe- as if it was religion - the Prius caused the "moonscape" around Sudbury, Ontario?

Too bad they can't ask official opinions of Sudbury, Ontario

The biggest improvement in the Sudbury environment came in 1994 with almost a billion dollars of emissions controls. Yep, those evil job destroying emissions controls again!

The Reclamation of Sudbury: The Greening of a Moonscape Part (1 of 2) » Republic of Mining

Of course, those pesky environmental regulations, and solid facts, get in the way of a heated and emotional arguement

Quite frankly, I could give one s*** what a person drives. And if 1996DD got so upset because a lady ripped him a new one for driving a Dakota and smoking, well, I've got news for him:

Grow a pair already

The real world is full of hurtful things. You had better grow thick skin or every time somebody hurls an insult, you'll go crying to mama

Personally, I think 1996DD should enlist and grow up a bit. I was already fairly mature when I enlisted many, many years ago. But the whiny crybabies had to grow up quick

That's because the media praises bad behavior, yet mocks intelligence and reason. They show kids and even adults, that if we act this way, we'll get attention. So nowadays, kids want to speak with improper grammar. Girls want to act like valley girls. Boys want to disrespect women. The media's goal is to divert us away from the real issues, and make sure that 80% of us (Chomsky) are nothing but mindless individuals who follow.

Think the mainstream media will ever portray learning science as rewarding? Think kids will be given any street cred for learning science?

Speak for your own ethnicity. Me? Well let's just say I'm signed up for the "hard" classes.

I guess the only comment is that in regards to ethnicity - and I'm a white guy - it's the bottom feeder white kids who seem to have the biggest chip on their shoulders

Hence the need to hide in the past, the "glory" days of America.

Well, we're decades beyond that. Time to think for the future

I'm considered "smart" and "brilliant" by my North American peers. I have meet my peers in China and India, and they are brighter.

There is a huge Mainstream Media and Cultural disconnect with things we should praise and admire. Eg: study a lot, take math and science, etc.

You are 100% correct with the Chomsky analysis

Jayman, you sure sound like an idiot. I'm an idication of why this country jumped the rails? Well how about you watch what you say, and assume beofre you know the facts?

Here we go,

-Im 18.
-Im a senior in High School
-I work 2 Jobs. One after school everyday 330-10. The other is saturday 5AM to 5PM, I bust ass, and I dont expect a pat on the back for it. But i'll be dammed if some asshole is gonna call me a dumb hick (paraprasing) for not having a phd, sorry if Im less of a person for it.
-I plan on going to Junior College, why? Its what I can afford. I plan to make the best of my situation. I wouldnt trade how I was brought up for anything.
-I do value education ,I dont value the additude that comes alongside it.

Macmaster05, I'd love to have you come on to my town. I bet us "uneducated" mindless individuals would treat you like part of the family. Just cause someone dosent talk like you, or have the same adgenda, or hasnt taken as much schooling, dosent mean that they arent smart. Im not sure were you live, but theres good folks everywhere. I dont appriciate you belittling me or my family, or my town. In a post further back you poked fun at our median income. I dont take kindly to you making fun of the people that are gettin up before the sun rises and coming home in the dark, to make the things you use everyday. My mother and father being two of em.

Back you you jayman, did I talk about Sudbury? No I've seen that argument and facts before, I do have an understanding of the facts, hence the reason I didnt bring it up, thanks.

You want me to grow up huh? Meet me in person, and im a modest guy, but let me lay this out for you. Know how many kids just sit around with a thumb up their ass? Lots, know how many work? Not that many , definatly not 2 jobs. I also help out the elderly in my neighborhood.

Dont call me not mature, unless YOU know the facts.

You wanna talk about white kids being lazy? Now I could count the number of blacks in my town on one hand probably, but the ones in the city? Now thats a bunch of lazy people. Not saying theres not good ones anywhere, but around here its the same old story over and over again. Welfare babies, drugs, guns and violence. Come take a stroll through the south and West sides of chicago, and see some real bottom feeders.

You referred to battery manufacturing as toxic, in reference to the HV batteries in the Prius. Prius HV batteries are NiMH. The only part of NiMH batteries that could remotely be considered toxic is the nickel, which generally comes from Sudbury. Sudbury is one of the poster children of Prius bashers.

So no, you didn't mention Sudbury. Jayman jumped to that conclusion, but it was a fairly short jump given the content of this thread.

Jayman is a good guy, but he has a low tolerance for foolish comments. I don't want to pick on you, but many of your comments are foolish. You are probably a good kid, but that's just it. Many of your comments sound exactly like what one would expect from a young person.

Don't sweat it. We were all 18 once, and filled with fire and certainty. At some point one realizes that pickup trucks and Prius are just automobiles, and neither means much in the grand scheme of things. They are just hunks of metal and plastic. What really matters are family and friends. It sounds like you have already figured that out on your own. That puts you ahead of most 18 year olds.

Tom

DD,

College can be expensive, but it does not have to be. My twin kids are freshmen; courtesy of merit scholarships my son attends for free and my daughter pays 1/4 tuition. If you think education is also a nasty 'liberal' thing you have more problems than your Prius prejudice, otherwise I encourage you to invest your time now in school and not polluting toys. It is a double win.

In case you are curious, neither of my kids have a drivers license. They use public transport or ride a bicycle. They also both work during the school year, and they have jobs lined up for the upcoming summer. My family is not poor (I am a physician) but my kids are brought up to be frugal, hard working, and good citizens. Environmentalism is a central ethic.

Too bad so sad

The reason I'm a consulting engineer, and you're not, is because I have almost 3 DECADES of experience in the field. You don't appear to have the slightest indication whatsoever of even attempting to learn facts

Your many comments regarding the Prius, eg the "toxic battery," point to it.

You said in a previous post that you'd leave the details to the scientists and engineers. Well, I am one

I'm amazed you would join this forum, and spout off about the "toxic" Prius, just because a chick ripped you a new one about the vehicle you drive, and whether or not you smoke

Quite frankly, I could give one shit what sort of vehicle you drive. And I could REALLY give a shit if you smoke or not. Nice thing about health care in the United States is that the taxpayer doesn't have to pay for lifestyle choices, like they do up here in Canada

But if a broad with an attitude can get you THAT worked up that you had to join our forum just to badmouth the Prius, I've got a few hints for you: grow a pair, and maybe stop worrying about your tiny peepee

I can't wait until you encounter a fiesty woman with a Ph.D. in Chemistry. She would leave you bawling like a little kid

I think it's great you work 2 jobs and go to school. Many kids nowadays couldn't fathom that kind of workload. Good for you man. Just make sure you get that college degree!

Have a great weekend.

Do you have any plans to obey your own advice?

You did bring up the subject of battery toxicity. And you were asked for sources. Are you going to cite them, or just leave this as an empty claim?

How deep do you plan to dig this hole?

Hi 1996DD,

Nobody expects a 18 yo to have a PHD or even a BS / BA . But by 21 you better be on your road to a future.

The Prius battery is made from strong soap chemicals and silverware (most nickel mined is used for stainless steels), besides the steel and plastics used to hold everything in place. There is also a non-toxic non-reactive special ingedient, which was figured out in Livonia, Mi. by a nice grandfather/grandmother science couple. It really is a shame that GM muscled them out that patent, and then sold it to Texaco! Its really a shame GM did not make the Prius. The first hybrid I ever heard of (in 1979!) was a GM sponsored research project at my university. Which is why I had owned GM products prior to the Prius (even though my family was into Fords, my Dad was actually a Chrysler engineer for a while).

Most of us here have had your workload, one time or another in their life. I am in my mid 50's. I had a few jobs where 80 hour weeks happened . And one where they happened for months and months.

When i was your age, I had school, wrestling, and a job which sometimes had me up to midnite during the week / certainly up to 11 every week night and one weekend night. This job also had early morning setups and activity during the weekend. This was in the mid 70's. It was a recession then too. Which is why I ended up driving so much - no jobs nearby for the college summers.

Just be glad you do not have to deal with 20 % inflation, and crappy cars like we did. With inflation people just cannot start new buisnesses very easily.

I was the designated family car tuner upper - two or three cars, every 6 mos, plugs/points/condensor dwell/timing - you got none of these things today. Which is why we NEVER had V6's or V8's. Think if you had to get to those plugs every 6 months, because the carborartor just was crappy at keeping the mixture right (espeically in cold weather!), and the plugs got all crappy in just 6 months! And yea, a good time on friday night was pulling those carborator and rebuilding them.


And batteries? I must have gone through 10 pairs of jeans from the battery acid holes. This was before sealed-lead-acid was every dreamt of. So, you had to keep the batteries topped up with distilled water.