Taxi of Tomorrow in New York Doesn’t Include a Diesel

The best I can make out of this: "The NV200 is not a hybrid and the administrative code failed to mention diesel as an option." Is that the code specified hybrid electric, which prevents a diesel option of NV200 to simply to used as an alternative fuel option.

 

New York City is an urban drive cycle where diesels have no mileage performance. In contrast, hybrid electrics typically get excellent City mileage:

	Column 1
0	[tr][th]City[th]Hwy[th]model
1	[tr][td2]44 MPG[td2]40 MPG[td]Prius v
2	[tr][td2]30 MPG[td2]40 MPG[td]Passat diesel

source: www.fueleconomy.gov

So imagine a line of taxi waiting in line to pickup fares at the airport in the summer. They need to run their air conditioners or their fares will pass. The diesels sit there running their engines while the Prius cycle the engines as needed to maintain charge while the electric air conditioners continue to run.

Bob Wilson

 

Bob,
clean diesels often do better at low load than regular ice vehicles. It seems rather artificial to keep out modern clean diesels in favor of old crown victorias that use more oil. Hybrids do better than diesels in a NYC cycle, but the city chose not to pick a hybrid in its bidding.

The NV200 gets an epa

24/25/24​

 

I don't quite understand this:

NYC contracts and taxi rules are something of wonder and horror. I really don't have a dog in that fight.

We're on the same sheet of paper on this which is why I only addressed the Passat diesel and Prius v, trying to match like-to-like. I suppose we could go with comparing hybrid and diesel SUVs but I thought that was a little over the top for a cab.

I have no idea how NYC goes about awarding cab contracts. I understand other cities use different methods and read some good reports of hybrid taxi service in Canada. Strange to think our Northern neighbors are more open to which vehicles are used as cabs.

Bob Wilson

 

just to let you know the taxi features

Taxi of Tomorrow preview: Nissan NV200 hits New York City streets ahead of scheduled fall debut - NY Daily News

key features that helped the nv200 were being able to remove odors and sliding doors. Some in NYC government tried to make all taxis hybrids, but that "all" got them in a fight with taxi drivers that didn't like the choices.

from the OP article

 

Just to be clear, the NV200 will replace Crown Vics, NOT the hybrids already in the NYC taxi fleet.
I don't have the exact #s, but IIRC, something like 20-30% of NYC taxis are hybrids of all varieties.....Camrys, Escapes, etc. These will continue.....so there will still be big gas and emissions savings by taking the 8-cylinder, rear-drive Vics off the streets in favor of the 4-cylinder, FWD NV200.
It is my understanding that by the time the hybrids are ready to be replaced, there should be a hybrid or EV version of the NV200, with the EV version possibly having battery-swap capability.
I also want to note that this article was written on a Diesel website. Even they admit that hybrids should far surpass diesels in a city cycle. Yes, diesels use very little fuel idling, but hybrids use NO fuel as long as their batteries are sufficiently charged, which should not be hard to do since the cabs are constantly on the move.
Acceleration is also much cleaner with the electric boost, and for diesels to not capture braking energy is just plain stupid, and will lead to much greater expense in brake replacements, as diesels tend to be heavier.
One contention I have with the article is that it stated "hybrids are just beginning to prove themselves as they reach 100,000 miles"
This is absolutely false, as one of the reasons Toyota - and we - know that the Prius is so reliable is because there have been many instances of them surpassing 250,000 miles in taxi service, which are driven much harder than with a regular commuter. Any google search will give examples of Prius in Michigan, Vancouver, and elsewhere lasting this long.....my local cab company had a Prius last 380,000 miles (battery still good).

 

This part, "replace Crown Vics" has me confused. How did the "Crown Vics" get selected originally?

So individual cab companies have the ability to go hybrid or "Crown Vics" which are being replaced by "NV200"?

Was this some rule applied just to individuals who wanted to operate a 'one man, one cab' operation?

I'll probably regret asking but I have no real understanding of NYC taxi rules and regulations.

Bob Wilson

 

Neither do I, but I think the Ford Crown Vics, and maybe some Chevy Caprice, were chosen by taxi companies simply because they were cheap to buy. I believe the drivers were responsible for the gas. As far as I know the NV200 is the first time the city dictated what model vehicle could be used as a cab.

 

The EV version is in the works, I don't know of any plans for a hybrid version. The NV200 will replace any cabs that are retired. There is also the choice according to the article to use bigger hybrids. The prius v fits this, but not the prius liftback, camry hybrid, fusion hybrid, or c-max.

I think the main point is London is getting the diesel version which is more economical to operate than the gas version NYC is getting. Why shouldn't NYC cab companies be able to choose the diesel version as well? Or a smaller hybrid like the Prius liftback?

Ford made quite good versions for both taxi's and police cars. These are quite easy to repair after accidents and have large back seats, important for cabs. They have proven highly dependable, but they are not fuel efficient. I don't think the city selected them for taxis, but the taxi companies were free to choose them. Now they want all taxis to be more the same, and selected one car plus hybrids.

 

Here's a list on the NY Taxi & Limousine Commission website of vehicles approved for NYC taxi use, which include a number of hybrids.

The Nissan "Taxi of Tomorrow" would in theory replace all of these, although there have been major objections to this, currently the subject of legal action. Wikipedia has a good summary of the present situation.

 

Nissan hasn't made the investment to EPA certify a diesel NV200 for the US. Until they do there's no way that they could sell them for use in NYC.

As mentioned before, the Crown Vic has been a mainstay due to its availability, repairability and durability. Many medallion holders have refused to give them up for a hybrid vehicle.

The NV200 is a big step up for rider accessibility and comfort. It really can't be beat in that respect.

My sister-in-law lives in Manhattan and needs a walker to get about safely. The NV200's can't come too soon for people like her.

 

The taxi system in NYC is perverse.

For one, they charge 400k+ USD for a license ("medallion");
Then they aggravate the situation by letting the owners of the medallion choose the cheapest car to buy and maintain, but force the drivers to pay for the fuel.

If you look around N. America, the fleets that have chosen hybrid typically have situations where the buyer of the car pays for fuel, so a TOTAL cost of ownership is the deciding factor in car choice. By the way -- they do not pick diesels.

There appears to be a notion that aggregating licenses to a few companies rather than a host of individuals serves the public by facilitating a quality standard of operation. I'm skeptical; I think the primary motivation is continuing high license fees for the city government, passed through (and more!) as artificially high taxi fares.

I gather Calgary has something of a compromise deal that results in sharing the costs of license, car and fuel by both the owner of the license and the taxi operator.

 

I wouldn't use that as a statement on the suitability of diesels for taxi service. Considering the past options was either a Mercedes or a Volkswagon. How many gassers of those have you seen as a taxi on a US street?

Hybrids do have the advantage for taxi service, since it is mostly city driving.

 

Notice, I said North America. Although that is not accurate either; I meant US/Canada.

 

Just some moldy
perspective on why a hybrid was not chosen, this is moldy, but no one put up a hybrid for the commission to choose.

Steve Parker: Hybrid, alt-fuel, clean-diesel taxis in NYC? Maybe not ...

Nissan and Ford both put up vehicles - transit connect and nv200 that they promised to crash test after modified for taxi service, and the nv200 won. My guess is toyota and ford did not want to test the modified camry hybrid and fusion hybrids, hoping to get sales without going through the additional expense. The commission some how, maybe as retribution disqualified these as new cabs starting in 2014. The prius v, RX450h, and hihy are the only hybrids included in the new ruling. The diesel version of the nv200 also is not allowed even if it were to pass epa rules (likely since nissan likely wants the London version to be low emissions)

 

This demonstrates the conflict in what css28 said above: "Many medallion holders have refused to give them (Crown Vics) up for a hybrid vehicle."

This is truly a ridiculous situation. The medallion holders love the crown vics because they are cheap to buy and maintain. The drivers hate the fuel bill, since they pay.
The reverse holds true for hybrids. The medallion holders don't want them because the are (relatively) more expensive to buy and maintain. The drivers love em because of low fuel costs.

Talk about a conflict of interest! Reminds me of the situation of landlords having no incentive to invest in energy-efficient appliances since tenants pay the utility bill.

 

And I was going to mention that Canada might have a better selection of diesels. At least the cars weren't shunned there, but it appears to be the same German makes that offered here. So the options are to take a risk on the reliability reputation, or pony up for a luxury brand. Neither of which are attractive to most taxi operators.

 

Diesel gives a lot of power when it combusts, so I would expect diesel in vans or trucks esp. on the highway, but not in taxis.

 

You probably missed the part that in 2014 the NYC taxis will be the gasoline 2L version of the NV200, while London taxis will be the 1.5L version of the NV200. Nissan modified the car for both london and NYC cabs. London seems to have specified diesel, NY gasoline. I can't see how diesel makes sense in London but fails in NY.

The diesel cycle allows for a more efficient lean burn at partial load (city driving) than the otto cycle.