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Tomorrow's 56.2-mpg technology showcased today in Toyota Highlander Hybrid

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by CPSDarren, Jul 11, 2011.

  1. CPSDarren

    CPSDarren CPS Technician

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    Tomorrow's 56.2-mpg technology showcased today in Toyota Highlander Hybrid
     
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  2. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    Saving fuel -at any cost-!! In Canada the Highlander Hybrid -starts- at $41,000 and can cost over $51,000 "fully equipped". But as it drinks fuel even in Hybrid garb it doesn't take long to "pay back" that high initial purchase price. ;)
     
  3. CPSDarren

    CPSDarren CPS Technician

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    Mine was just under $36k in the USA, before tax. Based on the numbers at fueleconomy.gov, it was about a 5 year break even compared to a similarly equipped base Highlander V6 AWD with the tech package. That model is about $5k less. Of course, with a 4-cylinder base Highlander that is much less expensive and has better fuel economy, I would never break even. Of course, I'd still be cutting the use of foreign oil and emissions from day one.
     
  4. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Funny they should throw out the theory of a 35mpg SUV. Our AWD Lexus hybrid SUV is built on the same Camry platform as the hyhi ... and it DOES get 35mpg:
    ;)

    [​IMG]

    ok yes, you DO have to work at it . . . but 10 years earlier? Who'd a thought it was possible? Toyota complained about a 35mpg cafe standard - sure. But at least they DID something about it. Contrast that against the caddy hybrid suv ... 19mpg? you gotta be kidding.

    .
     
  5. CPSDarren

    CPSDarren CPS Technician

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    Still, the AWD Escalade hybrid gets 20/23, or 21 mpg overall according to fueleconomy.gov. Compare to the AWD Escalade that is 13/19 or 15 mpg overall. A 6 mpg improvement doesn't sound like much, but it's actually a considerable gas savings because it's like a 40% improvement. Yeah, most people that buy one don't actually need anything an Escalade offers and could probably be in a smaller SUV or even a Prius, but comparing apples to apples, the hybrid is a big improvement.

    What is really needed is more small or midsize 3-row SUVs or minivans with a hybrid option. I'm getting 32mpg around town on my current tank with only moderately conservative driving. Someone could do much better with a smaller SUV or minivan that is optimized for fuel economy.
     
  6. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Highlander Hybrid CAFE is 38.7 MPG (combined). The adjusted FE is 28 MPG.
     
  7. CPSDarren

    CPSDarren CPS Technician

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    Good point, I forgot the CAFE method was completely unrealistic in absolute terms.
     
  8. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Its kind of a lousy article. Did the FEH come out in 2004 and get 32 mpg. Since 2004 SUVs have been losing market share. If the scientists are so concerned shouldn't they understand history. Could most of the hi hybrid SUV buyers get by with a more efficient escape. oops. Or other vehicle.
     
  9. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    (Well i think it was austingreen who dryly pointed out that) sometimes land barge logic takes a nasty turn, thusly;

    an abrams tank burns 60 gallons / hour or 0.6 mpg. So if we make a tank that gets TWICE the mpg (not just 40% better) we have ... what ... a tank that gets 1 mpg.
    As with the caddy . . . whoop de do let's celebrate :rolleyes:
    or . . . let's get rid of the tanks

    .
     
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  10. CPSDarren

    CPSDarren CPS Technician

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    Well that's just it. If you can get rid of tanks, or get everyone to drive a Prius, that's an amazing accomplishment. In the meantime, a tank that gets twice the mpg means the fleet uses half as much gas. Still impressive if there's going to be a tank fleet anyway. In terms of the Escalade, logic suggests that a lot of gallons of gas could be saved on each Escalade replaced with an Escalade hybrid, much as the article says about a Highlander replaced with a Highlander Hybrid vs. a Corolla replaced with a Prius. It's the logic of diminishing returns.

    Well, according to the source of the article, anyway, the FEH isn't really much more efficient than the Highlander Hybrid. In fact, overall, they claim it is slightly less fuel efficient, at least for the models they tested...
     
  11. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    agree with Hill on this. sure the percentage increase in performance is valid to a point. but when starting THAT low, anything less than 100% is meaningless. a 25-30% increase could be had by simply lowering the already over-powered engine a bit, an option not available on smaller cars who do not have power to "burn"
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Since Hill used my response in his, I thought I would reply directly. If the country was selling a great deal of Large SUVs then considerable gas savings could be had hybridizing them. I know a woman that has and loves her Yukon hybrid. Last month the Scalade/Yukon hybrids outsold the hylander hybrids and will end up saving more gas. But the facts are as gas prices go up people are realizing they don't want large SUVs

    Small SUV Sales, Midsize SUV Sales, Large SUV Sales In America - June 2011 - GOOD CAR BAD CAR

    Well yes and CUVs, station waggons and small SUV are where that market is moving. I doubt we need 3-row small SUVs in america, we have them but they don't sell even in non-hybrid form. The best selling SUV is the Ford Escape which is small, and in hybrid form gets better fuel economy than the hybrid highlander.

    Even GM customers seem to be shifting from large SUVs to smaller fuel efficient cars

    You can look at the numbers from the epa, the escape is an old design.
    Side-by-Side Comparison

    Ford escape hybrid 2wd - 32mpg, 4wd -29mpg
    Toyota Highlander hybrid 28mpg
     
  13. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    I remember at one point in 2008 (when the current Highlander came out), the hybrid incentives actually made the HiHy Limited 4WD-i cost the same as a Highlander Limited V6 4x4 w/ navigation.
     
  14. CPSDarren

    CPSDarren CPS Technician

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    That may well be true and that's why it's not trivial. As for sales, that's because for the past few months, there has been virtually no new supply of Highlander Hybrids due to issues in Japan. Prior to that, the Highlander Hybrid didn't sell well, but well more than the GM trio combined. This is a good resource for hybrid sales: Hybrid Market Dashboard | Hybrid Cars . I didn't bring up the Escalade, but I do think that there is a huge potential for realizing gas consumption decreases by improving light truck fuel efficiency (including small/mid/large SUVs) in general.

    Not sure about the last few years, but for the past couple decades, light trucks as a segment made up around half of passenger vehicle sales.


    Well, needs vary, of course. If you have 3 (or more) kids that sit quietly and happily for a long trip in the back of a Prius, great. If not, that third row is very useful. Minivans are still popular, though no hybrid or diesel has entered the market, yet. Like I said before, if you can get people to switch from a large SUV to a small car, that's amazing. If not, getting them to switch to a more fuel efficient SUV, truck or minivan can still cut gas consumption significantly.




    Right, a difference of 1 mpg. Not much more efficient, as I said. I referred to the source of the original article, whose testing compared the Escape Hybrid, 26 mpg overall, to the Highlander Hybrid, 27 mpg overall. Also, not much of a difference. Kind of surprising considering the Highlander is bigger, heavier and has an extra row of seating, much more power and more towing capability.

    I don't see what you'd really gain in efficiency comparing the FEH to the HiHy. On the other hand, going from a 13mpg Escalade SUV to a 21 mpg Escalade Hybrid SUV saves about 350 gallons of gas a year, at 12k miles driven. Going from a 25 mpg car to a 50 mpg car saves about 240 gallons. That's the effect of diminishing returns.
     
  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Ford F150 is the best selling vehicle. They shifted to a turbo 6 from a V8 to increase power and efficiency, the next step is to hybridize it, maybe phev it. The silverado is one of the best selling vehicles that has a hybrid version that needs improvement.




    Hey, I'm not against choice, I'm just saying in the US of A people are not buying many small suvs with 3 row. If you add a hybrid to them its not going to increase sales. There is competition and costs.





    I was commenting on how bad the article was. First they should include an objective measure of fuel economy not just their own test. That's what Motor trend, car and driver, etc do. Then they act like there is a big improvement. The escape hybrid is barely changed since it came out 2004. Being 1mpg less after all this time and a redesign is not marching toward fuel efficiency. The c-max energi will be the cross over with ford's new tech that should tell us where they have gotten in this time. Remember more people want to buy ford escapes than highlanders, so the switch to smaller SUVs is happening organically.
     
  16. MontyTheEngineer

    MontyTheEngineer New Member

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    This is important, and it seems to keep getting dismissed with an attitude of "a skinnier pig is still a pig." It's the absolute reduction in total gallons burned that matters.
     
  17. Insight-I Owner

    Insight-I Owner 2006 Insight-I MT + 2011 Prius

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    Predicting vehicle changes based on better mpg isn't simple. I don't think owning an SUV is necessarily a matter of NEED either in terms of size or AWD. In the last fuel crunch my assistant went straight from a Nissan Xterra (generally with just her in it, she didn't have a family yet) to a Nissan Sentra sedan. She had the Xterra for perceived safety and style rather than practicality. She definitely would not have considered a hybrid SUV from the perspective of either mpg or initial cost.

    So what current SUV owners will do as gas prices rise is difficult to predict.
     
  18. CPSDarren

    CPSDarren CPS Technician

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    Exactly, big pickups are the prime example of light trucks that could make huge reductions in gas consumption by getting a 40% boost like the big GM SUVs. Extend that to popular sellers such as midsize SUVs and minivans and you have a potential savings of as much or potentially more gas as moving small and midsize car buyers to hybrid cars.


    Lots of SUVs and minivans have 3 rows of seating. Highlander, Pilot, Flex, Traverse/Enclave/Acadia trio, CX-9, Sienna, Odyssey, Grand Caravan, Town & Country, Durango, Explorer, etc, etc. Almost all large SUVs have a third row. Even a few small SUVs like Rav 4 and Sorrento have optional 3rd rows. Getting a 40% boost in fuel economy would be considerable savings in gas consumption for light trucks in general. Whether people would buy them or not is an entirely different matter. For example, the vast majority of people buy non-hybrid cars over the Prius and other hybrids.

    I still think the point about consumption is quite valid. Even 40% fuel economy increases by going hybrid in a full size or midsize SUV has the potential for even greater reductions in gas consumption than moving people from small and midsize cars to models that could double their fuel economy.

    Whether people would buy them or not is most likely dependent only on gas prices. If we paid what people in Europe pay for gas, you'd see very few large passenger vehicles (like full size pickups, SUVs or minivans) on the road at all, just as is typically the case in major European cities. With cheap gas like we have here and a government that seems to prefer even cheaper gas, the trend away from light trucks isn't a guarantee, at least in the short term.
     
  19. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    Nope. It is total gallons burned that matters.

    We don't start with an entitlement to burn oil from which we decrease. We start with none, and must justify every drop. Given the length of time CO2 remains in the atmosphere, total output is all the matters in the foreseeable future.
     
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  20. CPSDarren

    CPSDarren CPS Technician

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    If only it wasn't just a very small minority of the general public that shared this sentiment strongly enough to act upon it, then there would be little discussion about this article!