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Toyota cover-up worse than GM coverup

Discussion in 'Other Cars' started by Troy Heagy, Jun 7, 2014.

  1. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    I was pretty shocked when I read this: "...the company hid from federal regulators a second cause of unintended acceleration in its vehicles: a sticky gas pedal. The problem was caused by plastic material inside the pedal that could cause the accelerator to become stuck in a partially depressed position. The pedals were installed in several models, including the Camry, the Matrix, the Corolla and the Avalon.

    "...For several months, Toyota received more evidence of the pedal problem and quietly made plans to address it without informing federal safety officials as required by law. Concerned that federal officials would learn about these plans, the company canceled the change in pedal design and communicated that change orally rather than in writing, so there would be no paper trail. After more instances of sticky pedals came to the company’s attention in 2009, executives decided to disclose the issue to federal regulators and issue a new recall. But the deception did not end there. After the recall was completed, the company produced an inaccurate timeline and submitted it to federal regulators and Congress, making it appear as if the company had acted quickly to address the sticky-pedal issue.

    “Rather than promptly disclosing and correcting safety issues about which they were aware, Toyota made misleading public statements to consumers and gave inaccurate facts to members of Congress,” Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. said at a news conference announcing the settlement.

    LINK: Toyota reaches $1.2 billion settlement to end probe of accelerator problems - The Washington Post
     
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  2. Roland1555

    Roland1555 Senior Member

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    Very shocking indeed...
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    2 million potentially deadly gm cars still on the road.
     
  4. KennyGS

    KennyGS Senior Member

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    So what.
     
  5. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Yeah "so what" is the proper response to dead men, women, and children
     
    #5 Troy Heagy, Jun 7, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
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  6. KennyGS

    KennyGS Senior Member

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    The "so what" was meant as, "OK, so what's going to come from this latest information?" "Will anything be done about it?"

    Sorry if I gave you the impression that I don't care about people who've been affected by this. I do care.
     
  7. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    How is this "Prius, hybrid, EV, alt-fuel news"? It's not even a recent article.

    What is it w/you and your hatred or passive-aggressive response towards all things Toyota? If you really dislike them so much, you should get rid of your Prius and get something else that satisfies you much (infinitely?) more (from the numerous threads you've started) and from a company that can do no wrong, in your book, that you don't "hate" and handles all defects, field reports and customer complaints perfectly.

    You aren't even consistent.
    And, you showed more hate of various other companies like Apple, Microsoft, Foxconn, Toyota again, Sony, VW, etc. at 2008 Prius Touring Edition spontaneous FIRE | PriusChat and Honda Civic Hybrid — Shocking Battery Failure Rates | Page 3 | PriusChat.
    Yet at
    Huh? You hate all these companies yet you say the above?

    2 million? GM's recall count is up to 34 so far this year, covering almost 14 million vehicles now.

    GM sets four more recalls, covering over 105,000 vehicles| Reuters
    GM Recalls 105,000 More Vehicles : The Two-Way : NPR
     
    #7 cwerdna, Jun 7, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2014
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  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Some of these recalls are of the proactive, face saving kind. From the NPR piece, ""31,520 model year 2012 Buick Verano and Chevrolet Camaro, Cruze and Sonic compact cars for a defect in which the shorting bar inside the dual stage driver's air bag may occasionally contact the air bag terminals. If contact occurs, the air bag warning light will illuminate. If the car and terminals are contacting each other in a crash, the air bag will not deploy," the company said in a statement, adding that "no confirmed crashes" had occurred from that defect."

    There was a similar recall involving the airbags earlier. If the airbag light is on, that means something is wrong and it needs to be fixed. The manufacturer should step and cover something like an airbag with a known defect if it falls out of warranty. Even issue a recall if the lot of bad airbags is known. But would we hold the manufacturer responible if the driver continues to operate a vehicle with the oil, ABS, engine, transmission, or any other 'idiot' light is on, and it leads to an accident or more damage to the vehicle?

    As to the ignition switch recall, 2007 and later models are being recalled, not for having a bad switch, but because the proper paperwork wasn't done.

    "A new switch was designed in 2006 featuring a different spring that made it harder to turn and, according to the report, the engineer in charge of the part, Ray DeGiorgio determined that “there was no cost associated with the change.”

    Still unclear is why DeGiorgio, who has since been dismissed from the company, didn’t have a new part number issued that would’ve highlighted the change, as required by General Motors protocol at the time."
    Fix for GM's ignition switch defect cost the company nothing, according to investigation | Fox News

    I've seen that reported in older articles. The ignition switch was fixed for 2007 models, but the part number wasn't changed from the defective one. So GM is now paying to have a safe part replaced due to it sharing a number with the bad one.
     
  9. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    "What is it w/you and your hatred or passive-aggressive response towards all things [megacorp]?"

    I have corrected that for you.
    I cannot think of a single honest car corporation (sadly). It isn't that I "hate" them..... that's as silly as hating a government. I just don't trust them to be good for customers. They have other goals they pursue (power, money) more important than us.
     
    #9 Troy Heagy, Jun 8, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
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  10. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Sharing a part number means there is a reasonable chance that the parts out in the field are mixed, some new, some old. The old versions would not have been purged from inventory, but would have actually been used on the manufacturing line. A recall is more than just saving face, it is meant to sweep the old parts out of the field mix before they do any more damage.
     
  11. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Everyone is entitled to reach their own opinions about this information.

    I take some exception to the headline, as I think wrong is wrong is wrong....

    To me it's not a matter of whether Toyota's mishandling is worse than GM's...

    If...and it's a big IF the information as presented is true, then I think the question becomes, should Toyota be allowed to halt an investigation by simply paying 1.2 Billion Dollar settlement?

    And if Toyota truly was not earnestly cooperating with federal officials and the investigation, what safeguards and changes are being put in place to ensure more transparency and that honest cooperation is forthcoming with any future issues.

    But I perceive GM's handling of their recent problems as "wrong". And if the information as presented in this article is also true, then Toyota has some serious questions to ask themselves.

    I don't know if simply paying 1.2 Billion dollars to make it all go away, is the right answer. Outside of 1.2 Billion dollars being subtracted from Toyota assets...it might be the most painless for Toyota.
     
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  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I agree with the issues the old and new part sharing the same number raises. It took leaded house paint a couple years to get off the shelves after the ban. The new part was improved in 2006. So, some 2007 models may have gotten the old part, and the old one can also be out in the warehouses and dealers for replacements. The safety risks are much lower than before the new part came along though. Which is why I said GM is paying for an error in the paper work. A different part number for the fixed part would mean GM would know when it exactly reached production, and could have had the old part pulled off the shelf back then.

    I also didn't intend, by starting a new paragraph, for that to be taken as part of the face saving airbag light recalls. Which the hyperbolic extreme would be recalling cars for dying by the side of the road because the driver ignored the low fuel light.
     
  13. KennyGS

    KennyGS Senior Member

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    @The Electric Me really touched on the main questions. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that payoffs and continued underhandedness will still be acceptable, which is why I wrote my original post.
     
  14. CharleneBlake

    CharleneBlake New Member

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    Who knew that driving a Toyota or Lexus could result in jail time and worse if a sudden unintended acceleration accident occurred? Toyota said all this is over because the recall has been done and it has paid its $1.2 billion fine. THINK again if you believe that claim! The real problem currently is ELECTRONIC SUA and accidents are happening daily. Many of these involve vehicles in parking lots when braking is initiated. Storefront crashes and crashes-into-buildings/homes are reported. Toyota finds the vehicle faultless...no code stored and EDR (black box) shows no braking. However, Toyota and Lexus drivers report the vehicle "taking off" or "having a mind of its own." These same vehicles have been reported going airborne from a standstill starting point in a parking lot!

    Here are the critical issues:

    Sloppily-designed Toyota electronic throttle system software (see Michael Barr's findings) equals RUNAWAY---a.k.a. sudden unintended acceleration----Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

    Worse? The electronic fail-safe---a.k.a. the way to stop the runaway---is also rendered ineffective at the time of the SUA glitch (Michael Barr, embedded software expert).

    Translation? Your runaway Toyota or Lexus is not going to stop until something stops it!

    Even worse? Your Toyota or Lexus EDR---a.k.a black box---is going to record inconsistent, unreliable data (see Dr. Antony Anderson's findings).

    Problem? You will be CHARGED for any deaths or injuries to others as a result of an accident your runaway vehicle causes based on the faulty EDR results and an assumption of "driver pedal misapplication."

    More of a problem? You may go to JAIL or prison if the EDR erroneously shows that you are not braking---which it has for others more often than not. Essentially, you will be deemed not telling the truth or confused in media coverage because Toyota will say its EDR is accurate---even though it admitted this data was unreliable previously.

    Even a bigger problem? If there is any chance a detail comes out that supports the driver, the media will take sides with the automaker and support your character assassination publicly. Are you on prescription meds or any medications? Are you an older citizen? Are you a woman and older? Bingo! Elderly pedal misapplication, according to media and Toyota.

    Don't worry...all your skeletons will be dug up as Toyota goes full steam ahead to escape blame for faulty electronics! Just keep track of all these mysterious vehicles-into-homes and storefront crashes and read the headlines. Read the PR propaganda supporting driver error.

    Toyota's $$ goes far and wide...even to the heart of the very agency commissioned to protect your SAFETY! The DOJ and NHTSA are still looking the other way---a.k.a. protecting corporate interests. They do not want to open up the ELECTRONIC sudden unintended acceleration issue as then there will be a public cover-up scandal which rivals the best---or worst---of them.

    All the above doesn't factor in the so far little-known in the U.S. whistleblower, Betsy Benjaminson. She's has copies of hundreds of internal Toyota documents. Many of these show clear evidence of concern over an electronic throttle system problem---a.k.a. "ghost in the engine"---and the lack of fix for it. Betsy has a blog where she has posted some of the evidence. She's been the feature of several articles and a podcast interview outside the U.S. Google her name to find.

    Toyota, the media, and the government seem to be handling each new suspicious runaway vehicle accident---a.k.a. driver states pressing brake when the vehicle takes off, becomes airborne, has a mind of its own, etc.---on a case-by-case basis. Apparently, there is the hope that each case will blow over with little public attention. There is hope, too, that the public buys into the PR machine working overtime with law enforcement and media to BLAME the vehicle driver. SUA victim = SCAPEGOAT.

    As far as Toyota is concerned, it is DONE with the topic of sudden unintended acceleration. Period. It got the free pass with a huge U.S. Government fine---a.k.a. permission not to face the music regarding ELECTRONIC SUA. Floor mats, pedals, driver error...done DEAL.

    Toyota's well-orchestrated smoke screen continues aided and abetted by our very own safety regulatory agency. Can't beat that! The sky's the limit now...think of all the untoward consequences for Toyota owners, not to mention the driving public.

    Toyota is #1 in numbers of sudden unintended acceleration events. BUT...it is not alone! This is an industry-wide phenomenon and not one automaker wants the public knowledgeable about ELECTRONIC sudden unintended acceleration.
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    arrrrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek: okay friendly, you're on deck.:p
     
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    links or citations?:rolleyes:
     
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  17. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Do you have any links that discuss modern 'electronic' SUA vs old fashioned 'mechanical' SUA, and vs the quite common 'pilot error / pedal misapplication'?

    Obligatory disclosure to newbies: My views on this field are not unbiased, but are colored by first-hand experience with a pedal-misapplication SUA in a previous car, described in past posts to PriusChat.
     
  18. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    TH,
    The sticky pedal problem was traced to an American company called CTS years ago. Toyota was only one of the auto manufacturers who bought from CTS. So ... if you want to throw stones, do your homework and compare the Toyota response to the the other involved companies.
     
  19. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    [emphasis added]
    "General Motors did not engage in a coverup of its infamous ignition switch problem, but it was responsible for massive and widespread incompetence, a new investigation says.
    ...
    The Valukas investigation ... did cite the incompetence of a dysfunctional culture. "The report highlights a company that operated in silos, with a number of individuals seemingly looking for reasons not to act, instead of finding ways to protect our customers," Barra said.

    From DesignNews: 'Incompetence & Neglect' in GM Recall
     
  20. ny_rob

    ny_rob Senior Member

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    Not an option with FUD.... :rolleyes: