<rant>

Too bad that this type of crappy metaphor passing for information isn't challenged more agressively. Implicit in the statement is that anyone purported PHEVs to be a "panacea" in the first place. If Toyota doesn't believe the electric grid is a cleaner power source than gas then cite some support or shut up. I for one am tired of giving money to OPEC so that the profits can go to people that want to kill me.

</rant>

I agree that HSD may be as efficient or possibly more efficient than plugin series hybrid for 100 mile trips. However, this is not the average drive. As a Prius owner, I have observed that HSD is less efficient for short trips. Since many live in urban sprawl, they make a lot of short trips. Plugin HSD or Plugin series hybrid will decrease fuel consumption if not eliminate it for urban driving.

It appears HSD may be competitive for rural driving, but not for urban driving.

Good ole Corporate Spin.

I remember years ago when IIHS started doing the offset crash testing. In those tests the Toyota Sienna came out as one of the worst vehicles in safety. Sixty Minutes requested an interview with someone from Toyota, but instead Toyota sent them a letter basically stating that the offset crash test was completely invalid, so they didn't deem it a problem. To Toyota's credit, they re engineered the Sienna, and a year or so later it came out as one of the safest cars in the offset test. So wouldn't you know, they had a ad blitz citing the IIHS offset tests, and how wonderfully the Sienna performed.

I'm sure once Toyota solves their issues with the PEVs, they will be ready to save the world again.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SeniorDad @ Aug 11 2007, 03:14 PM) [snapback]494027[/snapback]</div>

I think people discussing PHEVs forget about the need for heat. If heat is needed to raise the cabin temperature, I don't think the engineers are planning on electric heat. So the moment the computer decides the cabin temperature needs to be raised, the engine comes on. And if the engine comes on, then the catalytic converter needs to be heated. All this will require at least five minutes of engine running before the catalytic converter comes up to temperature and the cabin temperature comes up to the desired level.
So in California on a nice sunny day, the cabin temperature may need to be lowered, not raised. But here in Canada (and most parts of the US) there are lots of months where you're going to need cabin heat. True, the car's propulsion might still be electric, but if the engine is running you might as well draw some battery charging from it. So you might find that your PHEV, for which you paid a premium, runs a lot of the time just like a regular hybrid.
Actually here in Ottawa, Canada in January my Prius engine is running almost all the time. Only when we have batteries substantial enough to heat the car while driving 25 miles, are we going to have a large take up.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo @ Aug 11 2007, 10:34 PM) [snapback]494176[/snapback]</div>

It would be a pretty trivial matter to convert the existing air conditioning compressor into a heat pump (basically just a reversing valve, although there are a few other details to attend to). There would be no need to resort to starting the engine unless it was a very cold day out, in which case I would think you'd pre-heat the engine mass, heck you're plugged in so keep the majority of the car mass warm enough to sink the heat pump, to reduce the need to start it.

Heating is not a killer. Carrying two complete drivetrains, as opposed to the current setup of about 1.5 drivetrains, is an engineering killer...

OK, so what are the serious hurdles? Where is page 2 of this article?

So a plug-in won't reduce carbon dioxide any more than a hybrid (with no info on what's backing up that statement). That's nice, but I'm more concerned about carbon monoxide and all the other nasty stuff I'm breathing from the tailpipe in front of me.

I wonder if Toyota is giving GM alittle breathing room. Toyota already is a little nervous about the PR involving their new number one status. The car mfg's work together a little more than you think, remember the EV1 and Rav4 electrics and what happened all at once. I really think none of the car makers what this to happen.

You guys seem to forget that not everyone can use a plug-in. I live in a garden-style condo where everyone parks either in a parking lot or on the street. There is no electrical outlet to plug a car into. This is also the reason why an engine block heater is useless to me. No place to plug it in.

In fact I have never in my 20+ years of adulthood lived in a place where you could plug in a car. There are lots of us in apartment buildings and other multi-family dwellings that simply don't have the choice.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nybiker @ Aug 12 2007, 10:50 PM) [snapback]494478[/snapback]</div>

Do you have any clue how fast that would change if there was money to be made just getting electricity to your car?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nybiker @ Aug 12 2007, 09:50 PM) [snapback]494478[/snapback]</div>

I am with you here. I live in an apartment tower with no electrical access in the garage, and so I have no interest in plug-in. Also, I don't drive to work, so most of my trips are over 50 miles one way (90% of my miles are probably over 100 miles one way). I also doubt my apartment will feel the need to provide plug in access. Vacancies at my building are 0% (there is a waitlist), and they don't need my rent money. If 20% of people demand a plug in (which will take what, 20 years minimum), then maybe, but that is such a distant reality that it is meaningless.

But also, grid electricity is terribly inefficient, especially if it is from coal or natural gas. Max efficiencies are usually what, 35% of coal's energy is harvested into the grid. And coal is more polluting than the gas/electric hybrid system (think of all of the mercury, carbon dioxide, NOx, and sludge and ash waste, as well as the thermal pollution to the local body of water; then consider the coal mining where tops of mountains are cut off and valleys are filled - fly over W. Virginia where the destruction of the landscape is ghastly). Also, remember that grid electricity isn't there in excess. On hot summer days, the system is already stretched to max capacity. If we add our transportation needs onto the grid, we would need to more quickly develop new sources of electricity which isn't particularly cheap or easy.

As for the Middle East oil - we wouldn't need any imports of oil if every car in the US was just more efficient (i.e. as efficient as our current Prius). We could also move closer to work and drive less all together and energy indepedence will be obtained.

I agree with toyota, better efficiencies from new batteries will be more meaningful than plug-ins. However, I don't see why toyota wouldn't include an option for plug-ins for those of you where it makes sense (where your electricity is renewable, you have a warm climate, you make a lot of short trips, etc), I just don't want to see it come standard. However, in the long term, EVs will need to be developed because oil will become really expensive. So, plug-in technologies do need research and development, but I would put more money on other energy efficient technologies first.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarkMN @ Aug 13 2007, 12:59 PM) [snapback]494759[/snapback]</div>

Most of what you say is true and reasonable for car drivers. PHEVs do not apply to many drivers. But the environmental statements about coal being more inefficent for powering a car via electricity are just not true. The "well to wheels" calculations done by all car analysis shows that the opposite is the case, including coal when it comes to pollution and energy efficiency. Electric plants can and will be built as needed. The bigger problem is CO2 generation of any fossil fuel. This is the problem not fully realized as the environmental biggie and is the major problem with coal (and gas) burning. There are ways of mining that are not near as destructive as you describe. (But keep in mind I am not taking issue with the core point....that we need to find better answers.)

New sources of electricity are not cheap or easy.....but there are sustainable ways of generating electricity and this is why PHEVs and EVs can help immensely.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarkMN @ Aug 13 2007, 09:59 AM) [snapback]494759[/snapback]</div>

Location can make all the difference. Most places in California get a lot of sun. Especially the inland valley where the sun shines 300 days out of the year. I don't live in the inland valley, but the sun still shines a lot. If I get a PHEV of any kind, I plan to get solar cells on the roof. Enough to average zero off the grid.

It is important to note that a great deal of the power here comes from hydro and natural gas. I suppose some of the power might come from coal but those power plants are several states away and I suspect efficiency is better than 35%, a diesel engine does better than that. It is much easier to control emissions form a centralized power plant and I reckon they will sequester CO2 in the future.